The Energy Question Episode 45 Tammy Nemeth

In Episode 45 of The Energy Question, David Blackmon interviews Dr. Tammy Nemeth, who co-hosts The Energy Transition Podcast along with David, Armando Cavanha and Irina Slav.

In this 33-minute discussion, David and Tammy cover the landscape of energy-related issues impacting Canada and the UK.

Run of Show:

00:00 – Intro

02:05 – LNG exports in Canada

07:45 – Efforts by the Trudeau government to displace coal-fired power plants in Canada without using natural gas to do it – why it’s a pipe dream

10:48 – Separation of powers issues facing the country – is Canada moving towards authoritarian form of government?

12:00 – Canadian hydropower – status of exports of electricity into the U.S.

15:30 – Environmental groups opposition to new hydro dams

16:30 – Rising opposition from communities to new Wind Farms and Solar arrays

18:20 – Wind farms contributing to drought, deaths of whales

20:13 – Abusive management of the Canadian Pension Plan fund – Octopus Energy investments

23:00 – Issues surrounding the energy transition in the UK

28:00 – How the media fails to report honestly on energy issues, especially nuclear

29:00 – Where to find and follow Tammy online

30:18 – more info about nuclear

32:04 – Outro

The Energy Question Episode 45 Tammy Nemeth

David Blackmon [00:00:03] Okay, here we go. Hello. Welcome to the energy question with David Blackmon. I’m your host, David Blackman. And my special guest today is Dr. Tammy Nameth, who is one of my co-hosts on the Energy Transition podcast that we record every week. And I always like talking with Tammy one on one. She has so many insights that we don’t get to discuss fully on the other podcast. So it’s great to spend half an hour with you today. Tammy, How are you doing?

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:00:34] I’m doing great. Thanks so much for having me on here today. It’s always a pleasure to speak with you, David.

David Blackmon [00:00:41] Well, so you’re in England, but you’re a native of Canada, and those countries are like the U.S. going through a lot of shenanigans. Where our energy policy is concerned and some of it’s rational, some of it isn’t. And so I wanted to kind of focus on all those two countries today because we don’t talk about them enough, because what’s happening in those countries has a lot of influence elsewhere.

David Blackmon [00:01:12] I thought we’d start with Canada and Prime Minister Trudeau first. Justin Trudeau, He’s. Had some conflicting statements about natural gas and LNG here over the last several months back in the fall. He made the statement during a meeting with a representative from Germany be correct that there was no business case for LNG exports.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:01:42] It was yeah, it was the German Chancellor, right?

David Blackmon [00:01:45] Olaf Scholz Yes, right. That there was no business case for LNG exports in Canada. But then just last week he seemed to. Have a change of position related to that. Talk about what’s going on there with the Prime Minister.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:02:05] You know, it’s a really interesting question, and I’m glad you brought it up because as you point out, he said, oh, there’s no business case. But that was for natural gas going out the East Coast because it would be Alberta’s gas that would be shipped through Ontario and Quebec and then out to whatever East Coast port.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:02:26] And there’s been a little bit of talk that New Brunswick has a significant find of shale gas. And the environmentalists and the indigenous activists are already sort of winding up to stop it before it can even start. So there is there’s a different mentality and culture, I think, on the East Coast with respect to that kind of development as opposed to what’s been happening out west.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:02:53] so out west there are three LNG terminals, one is being built, and two more have been approved. The Cedar LNG project will be taking natural gas from the Coastal Gaslink project, which is 85% complete and has undergone a lot of potential sabotage and people trying to stop the construction.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:03:22] A lot of violence and whatnot has been going on there and apparently, the RCMP can’t find anybody, which is, you know, the RCMP always got their man. And so there’s these other two projects have been have been approved. Cedar LNG and wood fiber.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:03:38] Cedar LNG is an Indigenous project that’s run by the Hyslop Nation, and the wood fiber has been done with the approval of the Squamish Nation, where it would be set up and it would be an I, I think Cedar’s, a floating LNG project. So it’s kind of interesting. But all of that natural gas will be sourced not from Alberta but from northeastern British Columbia.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:04:04] So, you know, there’s a difference there. And I’m not sure if any Alberta natural gas will find its way out to the West Coast. It’s unclear at this point, but my understanding is that most of the natural gas is going to be sourced from British Columbia, and it won’t be for Canadian use, it’ll be for export.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:04:25] And so one of the arguments being made for why this is important is that it will be going to the Asian market and then hopefully the Asians will not build so many coal-fired plants and it will display CO2 or emissions in that respect, which is a completely legitimate argument. Why not?

David Blackmon [00:04:43] Sure. Yeah.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:04:45] But at the same time, the Trudeau government, while it will export natural gas, is developing a clean electricity standard with the plan to phase out natural gas power in Canada. So will develop natural gas for export to the Asian market, which I’m assuming will be bought significantly by China or Japan, while not allowing for our own use in Canada.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:05:18] And in relation isn’t that wild and in relation to that is cool, as we talked about a little bit a few weeks ago on the podcast, the former premier of British Columbia, Horgan, has joined it. He was super against all of these pipelines and was going to do everything he could to stop the development of oil and gas in the province and getting out and so on is on the board of a coal company, but so we can mine the coal and use it and send it abroad.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:05:50] But we can’t use coal in Canada for power generation. And they get away with it by saying we’re exporting it, but it’s for steelmaking, not for electricity generation. How do we actually determine that on the other end? I don’t know.

David Blackmon [00:06:09] Yeah. Can again, can Canada order China and Japan to use it only for making steel? I don’t know what authority they have to do that.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:06:18] I know once it leaves the country and gets delivered. How are you keeping track of what they’re using it for?

David Blackmon [00:06:26] Honorable commodity, right? I mean, yeah, it’s like saying, you know, the Russian oil that is bought by India doesn’t get exported then to other countries. You know, as the United States of America wants it, you know,.

David Blackmon [00:06:41] But once it’s combined in those enormous tanks at a refinery, it loses its identity. You don’t know where that oil’s sourced from, so it loses its character.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:06:50] For sure.

David Blackmon [00:06:51] Yeah. Yeah. Just crazy. I, I, you circulated a piece to us recently in our little email group by Vaclav Smeal, who’s just a brilliant analyst of all this related to energy and what’s going on in the world, making the case for expanded use of natural gas being really kind of a no brainer solution to reducing emissions by replacing coal-fired power generation.

David Blackmon [00:07:27] I just. I don’t understand. The reluctance of the Trudeau government and the Biden government, for that matter, in the United States to use and encouraged natural gas use for that purpose in their own countries. I guess there’s not that much need to displace coal-fired power plants in Canada. You don’t have many, if any, at all, right?

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:07:52] Oh, no. There is some like for example, Saskatchewan has coal-fired plants because we have a lot of coal and it’s good coal. It’s not the right the really brown awful stuff, you know that Germany has.

David Blackmon [00:08:07] Not lignite like we have in Texas.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:08:09] Yeah right. So it’s highly efficient burning coal and we had the very first carbon capture plant on the coal-fired facility in the south of Saskatchewan near Estevan. It’s called the Boundary Dam. And there’s there has been a huge research center there about how you store it, how you extract the emissions and so on and where you put it and so on.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:08:39] Some of it was used for enhanced oil recovery, but they’ve been trying to just store it, you know, and not, not, not use it and see how that works. And interestingly, a lot of that research has informed what the UK is doing on its enormous initiative into carbon capture storage here in the south of England.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:09:01] So, you know, there is a need for coal power in some parts of the country just because there’s no hydro like they keep talking about how 80 or 85% of Canadian electricity is generated cleanly by hydro or whatever. Well, if you live in Quebec or you live in British Columbia, where there are lots of rivers and stuff, Yeah, okay. You can get a lot of hydro from there. Even Lake Ontario as well.

David Blackmon [00:09:28] Yeah.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:09:28] but Saskatchewan is dry, it’s flat, it’s part of the prairies. You do not get we have one hydro dam I think, which is deep on Baker Lake and that was from damming a river. And we can’t do that everywhere. You just can’t. There’s not enough water. Same in Alberta, but we have lots of coal, We have lots of natural gas, so why not use what we’ve got?

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:09:53] And so there’s an interesting development taking place in Canada with a potential constitutional challenge because, in Canada’s constitution, the provinces have the right to develop their resources and their electrical power generation as they see fit within their borders.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:10:14] And now the federal government wants to come along and say, you can’t use coal, you can’t use natural gas, you must install wind and solar, you must use hydro if you can, and that violates the constitution.

David Blackmon [00:10:27] Yeah.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:10:27] So where this is going to go at the end of summer because they said they’re going to have the negotiations for the clean electricity standard this summer, I don’t know. But it could be an interesting development for the Constitution.

David Blackmon [00:10:44] Well, you know, we have similar issues in the United States, separation of powers issues, and any constitutional democracy does. And it’s always amazing how some governments, you know, tried to avoid or go around those kinds of requirements and pursued a more authoritarian kind of power.

David Blackmon [00:11:05] And we’ve seen a lot of that from the Trudeau government, starting with the COVID crisis. Oh, yeah. Yeah. On hydropower, hydroelectric power. You know, in the eastern provinces, there’s been a lot of that exported into the United States, into the New England states to supplement their own power generating capacity.

David Blackmon [00:11:29] But recently there’s been kind of restrictions growing around that, right? Because there’s it there’s been a shortage develop of the capacity there in those eastern provinces. So there’s not as much export into the United States now, correct?

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:11:47] Yeah. I had an interesting conversation with David Porterville from Quebec, and he said that Quebec is potentially running out of energy because they haven’t been expanding their sources of hydro as much as they should have.

David Blackmon [00:12:04] And they’ve signed a lot of export contracts that they’ve overcommitted to what they will export without necessarily having the supply to deliver what they promised. And then there’s they were talking about expanding and doing these other things. But always in Canada, there’s the environmental impact assessments that need to be done. There are.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:12:29] There are consultations with native people. A lot of the water that they would wish to use to expand their hydro facilities is on indigenous land and requires a lot of consultation and cooperation. So, you know, it’s problematic and I’m not sure how Quebec will deal with that.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:12:50] And what’s interesting is that there were they have a significant amount of natural gas in Quebec, and there were indications before when this premier, before he’d been elected the first time in Quebec, had said how he was supportive of developing the natural resources, including natural gas.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:13:11] Why shouldn’t we use our own thing? And so a whole bunch of projects were set in motion, and then they kept changing the goalposts. You need social buy-in, you need a social license, you need the indigenous people on board, you need support, you need to be net zero.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:13:28] So there was about two or three projects where they did all that, where they said, we will use hydro. We have a closed loop to ensure that there are no emissions from the facility. It will be net zero as you asked. And they got the Indigenous people to sign on to it and everything. And so what did the Quebec Premier do? He banned all natural gas development in the province.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:13:55] They passed legislation, banned it all, said, sorry, Yeah, we’ve changed our mind. We’re committing to global net zero. We’re not going to, we’re not going to develop it. So that left Quebec Hydro in a bit of a quandary because,.

David Blackmon [00:14:10] Yeah,.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:14:10] I don’t know, perhaps it was part of the competition where they wanted to develop the hydro and didn’t want the competition with the LNG or if it was more Trudeau with his environmental friends going at the Quebec Premier to say, No, we can’t have fossil fuels at all. This is about getting rid of all fossil fuel use, which is why there’s a war on plastic and petrochemicals and fertilizer and everything. it’s not the emissions.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:14:39] I think it’s the fuel source, you know, that that they’re concerned about. So anyway, just to tie up that last bit about Quebec, is that one of the companies involved had it was majority owned, I think, by some American investors and they’re now.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:14:56] Pursuing arbitration under NAFTA, there had been an arbitrary shift in rules and the provincial government needs to pay them for all the investment money. They put 160 million. I mean, it was a crazy number, a huge number. So it’ll be curious. I’m curious to see how that arbitration will work out.

David Blackmon [00:15:21] But at the same time, aren’t the same environmental activist groups that are opposing natural gas, aren’t they also trying to stop the development of new hydroelectric dams going in, being installed? Right. And even trying to demolish some of the ones that already exist. I know we have that going on in the United States.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:15:44] Right. I mean, it kind of goes to what we were talking about yesterday with Bill McKibben and the seemingly contradictory elements of the environmental movement because you have some who want to stop all development where we should all go back to, I don’t know, living off the land in teepees or something.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:16:05] But then there are others who try to tread a bit bit more of. Well, we need renewables, so let’s champion wind and solar. Hydro is still bad, but we can build wind turbines and solar panels. It’ll just be built elsewhere. So you’re right. I mean, it’s problematic. It’s hypocritical, It’s contradictory. I mean, it’s.

David Blackmon [00:16:28] Well, and we also, you know, have a rising opposition to the siting of these big wind farms and solar arrays as they come closer to populated areas and in the wind business. Listen, I know you’re aware of this. You have this warranty issue that’s happening with the manufacturers of the big wind turbines and the seven 800-foot tall towers for overpromising on their warranties.

David Blackmon [00:17:00] They’re claiming, you know, a 25-year useful life for a turbine and they start breaking down in the first year, many of them. So you just kind of have to wonder how the environmental movement is going to deal with all of this, these contradictions and what they’re doing as things progress in the transition. You know, it’s a very interesting thing to watch. If nothing else.

[00:17:28] You’re absolutely right. And one of the fascinating elements with respect to wind power is that there have been two rather significant studies, neither of which has received very much attention. One was back,. I think, in 2018, where David Keith’s group out of Harvard looked at what happens with wind turbines and ground temperature, and they found that wind turbines actually increase the ground temperature.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:17:56] It changes the wind currents and affects the weather. And that is not in a good way. And then there was a study just released the other day out of Germany, and they said that there are indications that the massive drought that hit Europe last year was caused by the wind turbines.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:18:19] And they showed this map of where all the wind turbine farms were situated, how it altered the air currents and created a significant warming of the ground, which amplified whatever natural sort of things were going on that received zero coverage in, of course, of massive. And they want to triple the amount of wind farms.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:18:46] Okay, maybe we should step back and take a look at that. And in the United States, you have the potential impacts on whales.

David Blackmon [00:18:55] Yeah.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:18:56] Greenpeace and all those guys were saving the whales.

David Blackmon [00:18:59] Well, I did too, you know. But it’s like they don’t matter now. Of course, they’ve tolerated the mass slaughter of migratory birds by wind farms for decades and always, you know, found the rationale to ignore what’s going on there. And I guess they’re going to do the same thing where the whales and other marine mammals are concerned off the Atlantic coast, which is really kind of tragic, I think.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:19:24] Very much so. You know, you think of how petroleum had saved the whales from extinction in the late 19th century and now wind turbines are going to let it happen.

David Blackmon [00:19:38] Yeah, it’s a real issue. I don’t know. We had just as an aside, a city council on one of the big cities in New Jersey moving to, you know, urging the Biden administration to stop the wind development offshore for 60 days while they study the issue.

David Blackmon [00:19:59] And you can’t even get the Biden administration to seriously think about it, much less do anything about it. And it’s really real. And so just one more thing about Canada I wanted to talk about. You had a great op-ed in March in a financial post about the Canadian Pension Plan fund, investing millions of dollars in octopus energy. Which is a company that brags about never having made a profit. How was that a proper investment for a pension fund to be making?

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:20:38] I know when I read that statement on the Octopus website, I was just shocked. I know that the pension fund rationalizes a lot of these sorts of net zero investments as well. It’s long-term. We’re not thinking short-term five, ten years.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:20:57] We’re thinking 20, 30 years down the road. And I’m thinking, okay, so octopus energy does not just invest in renewable energy production. They have an electric vehicle thing where people can rent electric vehicles from them or lease them or something, charging points, all these different things, which is the infrastructure that requires repair and so on.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:21:20] So I’m not really sure how this will be a suitable long-term investment for the pension funds, but they’re supposed to be arm’s length from government and they’re supposed to be somewhat independent. Group to think long term for the best interests of Canadian pensioners and. I don’t know. They seem to be following exactly what Ottawa would want.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:21:53] But that being said, I think almost all of the institutional pension funds are run by people who think the same thing. At least in Canada, like the Ontario teacher’s pension. The Quebec teacher’s pension,.

David Blackmon [00:22:05] Yeah,.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:22:05] The civil service pensions and so on. They’re all on this net zero bandwagon where they want to invest in all of this renewable stuff, which goes to kind of what we were talking about yesterday. Why this sudden rush on regulatory reform?

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:22:22] Because they need to site, they need a place to put this investment money because they don’t want it to go to oil and gas companies like you and they need it to be invested now. So that’s my sense of why they’re pushing this regulatory reform because people don’t want the wind farms in their backyard and they don’t want the fields covered in solar panels.

David Blackmon [00:22:45] So, yeah, that’s just going to be in. And of course, England’s going to get short shrift here because we’re 23 minutes in already talking to much of Canada. But there’s so much to talk about here. I mean, we’re just scratching the surface about what’s happening there. I do want to talk about one aspect of things happening in Great Britain, because,.

David Blackmon [00:23:09] I mean, I think it’s really kind of illustrative of the issues surrounding the energy transition. Liz Truss last year had, what was it, a five-week stint as prime minister before she was run out of office, largely because she was talking about implementing policies that would reverse some of the more irrational aspects of the country’s rush to net zero by 2050.

David Blackmon [00:23:39] But here just recently, the Energy Security and net zero department there in England, which is energy security and net zero is kind of a contradiction in terms, right? Just in the name itself published a new plan for the future, a new energy plan that really,.

David Blackmon [00:24:00] I think is looking at it seems to contain some of the elements of policy changes or continuations of policies that Liz Truss was trying to promote. I wonder what you think about that. I don’t know,.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:24:16] I read through the different documents trying to make sense of it. A lot of it was just rhetoric. But they’ve kicked it down the road a bit. So it’s like they’re making the right noises to try and convince investors and people that they’re going to be looking after energy security and doing net zero at the same time.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:24:38] And one of the interesting things that they’re doing is, is this pursuit of nuclear. But so Britain is. Their regulatory review process seems to change whenever there is a change in government.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:24:55] They’ve been they were trying to do nuclear for a really long time, that the Hinkley Point has taken forever. Maybe it’ll be up and running in a couple of years and there’s supposed to be another site going beside that one. And so then they did a review for Rolls Royce on one of their reactors and they got approval.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:25:17] But then the government changed and then they’ve set up this new nuclear thing where they’re accepting applications again for something else, but they’re still going to keep this other approval for Rolls-Royce. But now they’re opening it to other things. And what is it, the G Hitachi s m r has already put their application in to be under consideration and so on.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:25:42] And there’s been certain areas in the UK that said, we like this modular idea, let’s go for it. But these approvals take forever maybe 2031 of these summers will get built, maybe if it passes the process. And I notice that Greenpeace is very much against nuclear, but they haven’t started their push yet.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:26:07] I think they’ll wait and see what sort of approvals are done in this, in this bid for applications or whatever, and then mobilize their forces. But I mean, they use the same arguments in the UK as everywhere else in the in the United States that it’s a bad idea that there are storage issues, what if there’s a problem, and so on. So you if you look at what the polling says, the polling says at least 65% of the UK public supports the expansion of nuclear. So.

David Blackmon [00:26:45] Well, you know, and on the storage issue, I saw a wonderful illustration last week that shows that all of the aggregated nuclear waste on the face of the earth today that’s been generated across half a century now of nuclear power generation could be stored in a cube that’s less than the size of a football field and 60 feet tall. Okay.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:27:14] Yeah,.

David Blackmon [00:27:15] that’s all of the nuclear waste on the face of the earth. And we our governments continue to pretend that they can’t find a safe way to store that amount of nuclear waste. It’s really one of the most despicable failures of government policy I’ve ever seen.

David Blackmon [00:27:36] And it’s so sad that our news media doesn’t cover that particular issue more fully and honestly than it has to this point. That’s my rant for the day.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:27:52] But, you know, the news media, when it comes to any form of energy that isn’t wind and solar, they don’t do a fair and decent job representing the facts about it. And, you know, I think that’s one of the interesting things about Twitter and the community notes, because now it’s like people can push back a little bit, I think when.

David Blackmon [00:28:14] Yeah,.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:28:14] When ridiculous claims are made, you can put in the community notes, you know, a link to something that says an alternative viewpoint, which is, I think, a good idea.

David Blackmon [00:28:25] It’s a great idea. It’s the best change that Elon Musk has made to that platform other than, you know, cutting back on all the ridiculous censorship that was happening. I think it’s really made for a more honest and open debate on the platform, which of course, is why so many of the media operations are getting offended because they can’t stand to be involved in anything like that, which, again, is another very sad commentary on the state of the news media.

David Blackmon [00:28:55] Before we stop, I neglected upfront to let you talk to our readers and viewers about where they can find you and follow your writing and your own podcasting that you do.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:29:12] Well, thanks. I get to do a little plug. I have a website. I have a website called the Nemeth Report dot com, and it has links to the different reports that I’ve done and my YouTube channel where my podcasts go up and my podcast is also available on Spotify, Apple, Google, whatever the Nemeth report.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:29:35] And I don’t do podcasts as frequently as you. I wish I could, but I just don’t have the time. So I try to do at least one a month or so, and sometimes they’re quite long and sometimes they’re shorter, so I encourage people to check it out. The Nemeth report dot com and I put a link to the Energy Transition podcast on there as well.

David Blackmon [00:30:00] Wonderful idea. I should probably be more circumspect about how often I do these things too, but just not myself. It’s too easy. I mean, Eric, our producer, Earl, makes it too easy on me. Well, this is number one. Go ahead. Yes.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:30:17] I just wanted to add one thing about nuclear, and I should have said it earlier, but I forgot. So one of the interesting developments is that one of the biggest uranium miners is Cameco, which is in Saskatchewan and Saskatchewan is the province I’m from. And they have Saskatchewan has some of the best uranium in the world.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:30:36] And Cameco and Brookfield Renewables have invested in Westinghouse in order to promote these smarts and to try to solidify the supply chain. One of the interesting things about Brookfield Renewables is that they’re VP for the renewable side is Mark Carney.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:30:58] So we have a case of Mark Carney encouraging governments to follow net zero, but then leading his investment firm to make investments in companies that benefit his investment firm, which I don’t know. That’s murky and that seems murky.

David Blackmon [00:31:22] That does seem a little murky, doesn’t it? Josh, that never happens in the United States, man. Oh, never. Oh, gosh, We shouldn’t laugh about it. It’s it’s all too sad. Anyway, you either laugh or you cry about these things and tell me thank you for laughing through this half hour with me. It’s always a pleasure. And we need to do this more frequently. And I have to tell you, our week with our panel on the Energy Transition podcast is is my favorite hour every week. And it just this is such a wonderful way to kick things off and jump start my brain every week. So.

Dr. Tammy Nameth [00:32:02] It’s like, I love it.

David Blackmon [00:32:03] Yeah, it really is.

David Blackmon [00:32:04] And thank you for, for, for doing our show today. We’ll talk to you again soon. I know we’re also available. The energy question is also available on Spreaker and Spotify and Apple Podcasts and anywhere else you can find podcasts on the Internet.

David Blackmon [00:32:22] And we’re also having our own site on YouTube. And you can find links to all of my episodes at my Substack, which is Blackmon dot Substack dot com. And that’s enough commercials for today. We appreciate the Sandstone group for hosting our podcast. And of course Eric Parel, our extraordinary producer. I’m David Blackmon. And that’s all for now.

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