The Energy Question, Episode 43: Chuck McConnell, UH Center for Carbon Management in Energy

 

David Blackmon [00:00:09] Hello, Welcome to The Energy Question with David Blackmon. I’m your host, David Blackmon. And my special guest today is Chuck McDonald, who’s the Energy Center officer for the University of Houston Center for Carbon Management and Energy. Chuck, how are you doing today?

Chuck McConnell [00:00:25] I’m doing great. David. It’s good to be back with you so soon after our last discussion. But it was it was wonderful. I’m looking forward to today as well.

David Blackmon [00:00:34] Yeah, No, I’m in. I’m actually very pleased that you wanted to do it. I. That first discussion about carbon capture that I urge everyone to to watch, if you haven’t seen it already, is really, you know, incredibly educational and gives people a really good high level tutorial in why carbon capture is so important.

David Blackmon [00:00:57] And today we’re going to talk about another piece of the energy transition that not a lot of people know a lot about, which is hydrogen and hydrogen hubs and before we get into the Q&A on that, though, Chuck, take a couple of minutes again to talk about the CME and the work you’re doing there at the University of Houston.

Chuck McConnell [00:01:19] Well, thanks, David. Yeah, we we’re very proud of our Center for Carbon Management and Energy at the University of Houston. And for your listeners that weren’t part of the last podcast, let me just reiterate that about five years ago, the major players in the energy picture and in Houston, oil and gas, petrochemicals, electric power, etc., manufacturing, cement, all of the different industries,.

Chuck McConnell [00:01:49] All of them, Part of our energy advisory board at the University of Houston were blessed with a wonderful industry group that that helps us and gives provides advice to the university. And they challenged us with the fact that this energy transition was coming.

Chuck McConnell [00:02:08] Carbon management was a big part of it, and that for them to be successful going forward, they knew that they would need to tap into the university’s capabilities in terms of energy, engineering, science, legal policy and certainly the business school, and to be able to create a center at the university where it’s more than just a concierge service.

Chuck McConnell [00:02:35] But you could look at it that way as you bring the industry opportunities in to be able to create multi-disciplined teams that can work on solutions and challenges. Focus our research, provide opportunities for these industry folks in the Houston area that are part of our center to be able to have symposiums and conferences and share learnings and best practices, things of that nature.

Chuck McConnell [00:03:05] So it’s it’s about the science, but it’s also about the aspects of business and all of the other areas that go into that. So our center has been in existence for about five years and that’s actually when I came on board at the University of Houston after serving in Washington for for several years at the Department of Energy.

David Blackmon [00:03:25] Yeah, well, you know, Houston, of course, is such a target rich environment for our energy and carbon and all of these things. And in a course where hydrogen’s concerned, it’s turning into a real opportunity center where that’s that’s concerned too. So it’s just wonderful that the University of Houston has set up this program there. And, you know, it’s I know it’s doing great work in the community.

Chuck McConnell [00:03:54] Well, David, maybe I just to build on that, we have considered ourselves to be the energy university for quite some time now. Yeah. Yeah. And also recognizing now that as we enter the energy transition, there are any number of different philosophies that one might embrace.

Chuck McConnell [00:04:14] Our philosophy is very simple we focus on the emissions. We don’t focus on demonizing an industry or creating a situation where a fuel or a feedstock or a technology might be the one that we don’t want in in in deference to something else. Okay?

Chuck McConnell [00:04:36] And so we embrace everything We’re we’re all about whatever it takes to lower emissions and at the same time remain sustainable. And that’s a key that’s a key term that we use also, David, in that we have to have reliable and available energy. We have to have affordable and cost-competitive energy, and we have to have environmentally responsible energy. And if we get all three, we’ve got the trifecta, and that’s the definition of sustainability. It’s a tough needle to thread.

David Blackmon [00:05:17] Yeah, it is.

Chuck McConnell [00:05:18] And a big part of what we’re doing is the pursuit of that through solutions.

David Blackmon [00:05:24] Well, one of those solutions that a lot of people talk about is hydrogen, of course, and discussions about hydrogen vehicles go back 20, 25 years now. And it’s always been a lot of stopping and starting involved.

David Blackmon [00:05:39] But through the IRA and the infrastructure bill before that, the government now has set up some programs to try to advance hydrogen and this concept of hydrogen hubs into a reality. And I wanted to start, I think, by just talking about what we mean. What do we even mean when we talk about a hydrogen hub in this context?

Chuck McConnell [00:06:11] Well, I think just generally the concept of a hub, whether it’s hydrogen or some of the other hubs that have been developed over the past several years through the Department of Energy, whether it’s manufacturing in the Midwest, supporting the automotive industry, whether it is a carbon hub, that’s that’s promoting the technologies and the ability to transform carbon into useful products, etc..

Chuck McConnell [00:06:42] It’s the idea of this public private partnership capability that can begin with some type of a scaled up approach to meeting the demands of the marketplace, creating a marketplace that will then be able to use what’s being produced in a particularly effective way. And whether or not in the case of hydrogen, that is transportation vehicles, as you just mentioned,.

Chuck McConnell [00:07:12] But it also has a myriad of other opportunities, largely driving through industrial fuel substitution, the use of hydrogen in chemical process industries, the ability for hydrogen to be used in the software ization of gasoline and fuels, etc., even hydrogenation of foods.

Chuck McConnell [00:07:36] I mean, hydrogen has a number of different applications today, and the anticipation is going forward that there’ll be an enormous role for hydrogen. But in the process of doing so, the production of that hydrogen and the hydrogen itself needs to be decarbonized. And so it’s a it’s an opportunity for the whole technology evolution to address that in in a holistic way. So it’s really sustainable.

David Blackmon [00:08:10] So talk about how the hydrogen is produced. We hear all, you know, and I deride people for doing it, but we have all these what I call fake colors of hydrogen that float around you have green hydrogen, you have blue hydrogen, you have gray hydrogen or as I know, there might be a yellow hydrogen out there somewhere, has a lot of sulfur in it. I’m just kidding about that. But the talk about how the hydrogen is derived, first of all, because there’s a variety of different means of doing it, right?

Chuck McConnell [00:08:43] Yeah, there sure is. And I sort of embrace your term of fake colors. I mean, it’s always interesting to me how people in the scientific community or even those that are intellectualizing around some sort of a new concept will want to put a stamp on something. Heck, David, there’s even a turquoise hydrogen, if you can believe it. Yeah, go ahead but go ask your next door neighbor what that is. Okay. And so that’s the absurdity of it. All right. So the way I look at it is I don’t use colors.

Chuck McConnell [00:09:18] As a matter of fact, I resist talking about the colors of hydrogen because I just think it’s confusing for the general population. It doesn’t really serve a purpose because many of the colors are driving toward creating an image around that hydrogen that might make it preferentially better sounding okay and that’s that’s a problem and we might talk a little bit about that here in a moment or two but let me get back to your question.

Chuck McConnell [00:09:49] The hydrogen that’s produced and and I’ll just give you some examples today’s total market for hydrogen is about 13 billion cubic feet a day of hydrogen that’s a lot of hydrogen. A lot of that development of hydrogen has really occurred over the last 20 some years, whereas it used to be used in chemistry and chemical applications.

Chuck McConnell [00:10:16] But over the last 20 some years, with the advent of the Clean Fuels program here in the U.S. especially and now globally, to get the sulfur out of gasoline, hydrogen trading, hydrocracker and those applications in the refining and CAD cam industry are really driving a huge delta. Okay. So 13 billion cubic feet a day, projections are for the hydrogen market to go three, four, five x over where we are today. Enormous growth, Right?

Chuck McConnell [00:10:53] Second thing you need to know about hydrogen in terms of production and ultimately distribution is in the U.S., there’s about 1400 miles of pipe for hydrogen, 85 to 90% of it is in Texas and Louisiana, and it’s serving the Gulf Coast industries and the industries that I just talked about.

Chuck McConnell [00:11:14] And so you have a rather large volume of hydrogen being used in a fairly small geographic area. But the application of hydrogen across the board, you can do it in a number of different ways. 85% of the hydrogen that’s produced comes from the reforming of natural gas. Yeah, natural gas is actually processed over Catalyst, steam injected.

Chuck McConnell [00:11:44] And through that process you actually disassociate the hydrogen from the natural gas produced the hydrogen. But in the process you generate an enormous amount of CO2. And that’s one of the things that, again, is targeted in terms of how do you decarbonize a technology that’s providing 85% of the hydrogen that the market demands.

Chuck McConnell [00:12:08] Now, there are other means of producing hydrogen. You can use what’s called electrolysis, which is taking water with electrolyzers, using electric energy. And through that process, actually separating the hydrogen molecules from the the oxygen in the H2O, and you create now a hydrogen molecule.

Chuck McConnell [00:12:32] Some would say that’s the definition of green hydrogen, because you’re not producing any CO2. It’s an interesting way to label it because in terms of the electricity that’s being provided to the unit itself. And where does that electricity come from, number one.

Chuck McConnell [00:12:55] And number two, and maybe more importantly, generally, fresh water is not available ubiquitously around the world. And so you have an enormous amount of desalinization globally that’s going to be required, also very electric energy intensive.

Chuck McConnell [00:13:14] And then, of course, you have all the mature construction for the electrolyzers themselves with using very un renewable materials such as the materials, the construction, the concrete, etc.. And so describing it as a pristine renewable production unit for hydrogen, it’s a little bit of a misnomer, sort of to the point of the fake color that gets associated with it.

Chuck McConnell [00:13:44] But I think it’s probably also important to know that the world’s largest electrolyzer today is about 5% of the size of a typical world scale steam methane reformer that uses natural gas, reforming technology, which is the the normal process, but largely utilized process that we’re all used to. So we have an enormous challenge in front of us in terms of modes of production.

Chuck McConnell [00:14:15] You have to have the proper scale. You have to have a cost. And you also have to be able to produce a hydrogen that’s not putting CO2 into the atmosphere. And for that process that I describe with natural gas and natural gas, reforming that does generate CO2, that comes back to that conversation we had a couple of weeks ago and that’s why so CCUS is so important, right, to be able to and.

David Blackmon [00:14:41] There’s just a natural synergy between .

Chuck McConnell [00:14:43] Two. You’ve got to have that synergy. Now it’s fair to say that everywhere in the world CCUS. is not applicable and whether it’s the proximal geology or whether or not it’s the scale and the commercial adaptability of a large scale CCUS project, there are many places around the world where smaller volumes of hydrogen will be needed.

Chuck McConnell [00:15:08] Electrolysis units can very well meet that kind of demand there are many places in the country today where liquid hydrogen is actually manufactured, produced and sent via trucks and railcars to locations where volumes of hydrogen requiring that means of distribution make it the most efficient manner in which to provide that hydrogen.

Chuck McConnell [00:15:33] So describing the solution as a one-note song is really a misnomer and that’s a big part of what we’re trying to do in the education process throughout as these hubs are put in place, how are we able to serve the marketplace and the broad capacity of that marketplace? How can industry put investment in place to begin to create some platform to lever up from also to meet multiple types of hydrogen demands from customers and the marketplace to work closely with industry and universities in terms of the technology transformations that are going to be required to work very closely with public communities.

Chuck McConnell [00:16:29] Where these hydrogen applications will be encurring some that we’re ensuring that communities don’t get disadvantaged, communities are able to take advantage of the employment opportunities and then also the growth of the industry and the jobs and everything that comes with it.

Chuck McConnell [00:16:46] And to ensure that our facilities and the footprint of what we’re doing are making people’s lives really better. And again, a challenge, but certainly not insurmountable. And the hubs are being defined in places around the country where those challenges need to be met that’s what I was supposed to do.

David Blackmon [00:17:11] Right. And for those in Texas, you know, my audience, a lot of people are in Texas need to know that this is all happening in real time. This is not some futuristic discussion here. I mean, I know that Exxon Mobil, for example, is already in the process of establishing their own hydrogen hub operation in is it Baytown or Bay City, Texas?

Chuck McConnell [00:17:34] It’s Baytown. And they do Everything related to hydrogen and hydrogen activity isn’t necessarily a hub. So let me let me. Right. Right. But the distinction there with the hydrogen hub concept is really something that’s been promoted through the Department of Energy in the work, then in the investment acts that have recently put money out into the marketplace, you should be aware that, you know, about a year ago there was a call put out for concept papers around the country and there were 75 some submittals.

Chuck McConnell [00:18:11] The Department of Energy sorted through that and gave letters of encouragement to 35 organizations, and those 35 organizations recently completed their proposal submission, not their concept paper, but their proposal submission for phase one that went in on the 7th of April. The Dow is going to take six months, nine months. I’m not sure to make a determination,.

Chuck McConnell [00:18:40] But our anticipation is for that first phase that there will likely be 8 to 12 of these jobs identified around the country for further development in phase one and phase one is really prospecting, outlining, scoping the possibilities, putting the teams together, etc., etc..

Chuck McConnell [00:19:02] Some of these teams around the country are much further along commercially. Other teams are really more being discussed in press releases almost as political announcements bias of several states that have come together that are excited about it. And I don’t know exactly what that means in terms of a project, but not in terms of the fact that there’s always to.

David Blackmon [00:19:29] Makes me Nervous when state officials get excited about it

Chuck McConnell [00:19:32] There’s a lot of money out there everybody’s chasing the money right now and Izod said to many people, there are plenty of really good prospects and projects. There’s also an equal or maybe more amount of imposters out there that are that just makes a case for getting some money from the federal government. And unfortunately, the process isn’t perfect. It is what it is. But I think that’ll get sorted out through the election, through the rigor of going through the process.

David Blackmon [00:20:06] And it’s a pretty good pot of money too. It’s like $7 billion, right?

Chuck McConnell [00:20:10] Yes, it is. But we’ve got to be careful. Phase one as a very minimal amount of that 7 billion is going to be asked out. Right. And then you’ll get to phase two, at which time there’ll be another amount of funding that will come in. And then really by the time Phase three rolls around and that’s probably 3 to 4 years from now, that’ll be the point where investments will actually need to be made, right? Start talking about $1,000,000,000 sounds like a lot of money, but if you start thinking about what it’s going to take to do a hub and to develop all the commercial aspects,.

Chuck McConnell [00:20:47] Just even here on our Gulf Coast, you better be thinking about, you know, billions and billions of dollars. Okay, why not? It’s not just federal funding that’s going to make this happen. It’s going to require a significant amount of investment.

Chuck McConnell [00:21:05] And that’s why in these hubs, it’s really important to have industries, support industries with balance sheets, industries that are interested in making investments and not just getting handout money from the federal government because the cost share from industry has to be an enormously larger amount than what you would get from the federal government.

Chuck McConnell [00:21:30] The federal Government’s here to catalyze and move things forward. That’s what I was doing when I was at the D.O.D. ten years ago, is looking at technologies, trying to get advancements to occur, catalyzing things.

Chuck McConnell [00:21:45] But you want to work with industries that actually have the capability, have the know-how, the workforce, everything else, but also the money to be able to make these investments that are that are very, very heavily cost intensive, capital intensive,.

Chuck McConnell [00:22:04] But over time also requiring the skills to operate safely, the skills to be in place to deliver something that communities will be happy with for the next 20, 30 years. And that’s what the whole idea is. Let’s get this thing started to scale up to the point where now the industry investment will continue to multiply.

David Blackmon [00:22:28] Yeah. And I think, you know, people don’t generally understand how infrastructure in terms of this is all going to be. You hear talk and I wonder what your view on this is there are a lot of talk about, well, we can just take all this existing natural gas infrastructure, pipelines and plants, etc., and just move the hydrogen in that existing infrastructure. Is that really right?

Chuck McConnell [00:22:55] No, There’s a.

David Blackmon [00:22:56] Big difference between moving hydrogen and moving natural gas.

Chuck McConnell [00:23:00] Yeah, well, there is a big difference in that area. But I think just the first part of your question is can we take old assets and repurpose them? And I think that’s an interesting concept, at least theoretically. Yeah, but but, you know, you heard me talking earlier about the fact that we’re looking at two, three, four, five X kinds of volume increases in a marketplace for just hydrogen. You can take that same number and apply it to carbon dioxide. You can take that same number and apply it to natural gas.

Chuck McConnell [00:23:33] And so do we have all the necessary infrastructure? Not even close. We need a lot more. And the idea that we’re going to incrementally tack on to something that’s already there, I just think that’s naive. Okay. So from the standpoint of where are we today, the idea of scoping this out effectively, thoughtfully, being able to put in place investments that can then scale and be built upon. Kind of like building a house, put a good foundation in place, get things in place, and then begin to move this along.

Chuck McConnell [00:24:10] So, no, I think the we’re going to need a lot more simply because of the growth of the energy transition. I want to say something else, too. It’s really pretty important. We talked a little bit about markets and serving needs, etc.,.

Chuck McConnell [00:24:26] The biggest single need for hydrogen to make the hydrogen economy and the energy transition work is something called fuel substitution. It’s not vehicles. It’s not substituting the gasoline out of a truck and using hydrogen. That’s going to happen and it will have its place, but it’s not going to be the store. Right.

Chuck McConnell [00:24:55] The story is fuel substitution. And that simply means that all of these large industrial complexes raise an enormous amount of on purpose steam for their process industries, steam intensive process industries that usually combusting natural gas and in the combustion of the natural gas produced the steam. But we also throw off CO2.

Chuck McConnell [00:25:23] Now, can we produce that steam with a non CO2 intensive fuel? The answer is yes, we can. We can transition from natural gas to hydrogen. But that doesn’t mean we’re going to stop using natural gas because as I mentioned earlier, the way you produce at scale, world scale hydrogen is reforming natural gas. So we’re going to put another step in the process.

Chuck McConnell [00:25:53] We’re going to take natural gas in larger volumes. We’re going to reformat and create hydrogen in much larger volumes. And that hydrogen will then go to the industrial fuels substitution to take the natural gas out of the fuel headers indirectly.

Chuck McConnell [00:26:11] But it isn’t going to eliminate the need for natural gas. So this idea that we’re going to go to this new world where we don’t use hydrocarbons. That’s really a fallacy. But we have to be thoughtful about the technologies we deploy, because when we deploy those types of technologies such as CCUS that’s the ticket. That’s how we do it commercially, effectively at scale, meeting these enormous demands.

David Blackmon [00:26:42] So so you talked about states that are excited about a minute ago. Is there a role for the state legislatures to play in encouraging this kind of hydrogen based activity, you know, advantaging their state, creating the kind of regulatory environment that that it may be necessary to to facilitate all this kind of development?

Chuck McConnell [00:27:08] Oh, absolutely, David. There’s no question about it. There’s a role and there’s there are there are important things to be done and considered. Political pontification probably isn’t high on that list. But but that’s what they’re best there.

Chuck McConnell [00:27:26] Well, to be fair to the situation, a lot of these challenges are new. A lot of these challenges require thoughtful implementation of the kinds of approaches that will enable. Right of ways permitting applications. Being able to create a business environment that’s going to incentivize these investments, these investments are going to generate jobs.

Chuck McConnell [00:27:57] They’re going to generate a tremendous competitive advantage in the state for the products produced in that state. Let me just think about Texas for a second. We produce all of this energy. They want to get hydrocarbon based right. If we can actually decarbonize these fuels and and plastics and things that we’re making today with hydrocarbons,.

Chuck McConnell [00:28:24] But we can decarbonize them. We can actually create a competitively advantaged product in the global marketplace. And that’s going to make Texas go to the top of the list in terms of the products that we produce.

Chuck McConnell [00:28:39] The state, I think, is recognizing that now there’s a recognition that CCS, US and hydrogen hubs are going to be essential to the long term health of the state for revenue, GDP, everything else. I’ll add a third leg to that stool, and that would be a reliable electricity grid designed to meet those incredibly larger demands for electricity going forward.

Chuck McConnell [00:29:09] And that’s not just going to be satisfied with renewables that’s the other fallacy that’s out there. We’ve got a tremendous amount of gas fired facilities. We have one of the newest coal fleets in the world in the state of Texas, addressing a lot of the constituent pollution control materials that those those those facilities have. But we’re not addressing the CO2 in those baseload hydrocarbon facilities.

Chuck McConnell [00:29:40] But if we apply CCUS to those natural gas fired facilities, to those coal plants, we can decarbonize that electricity. Yeah, we don’t have to we don’t have to shut down coal to make ourselves part of the energy transition.

Chuck McConnell [00:29:58] We have to address the emissions and if you address those emissions and you decarbonize what you’re doing, then you’re every bit as environmentally responsible as anybody else with any color that they want to put on themselves. It’s about decarbonizing those emissions.

David Blackmon [00:30:18] Well, it is. And you course with me, you’re preaching to the choir you know, I’ve written the many times that it just seems to me with all these billions and hundreds of billions and even trillions of dollars being thrown around in tax incentives and subsidies and other forms of government investments,.

David Blackmon [00:30:37] You might be better off cleaning up the current system than you are just targeting everything to to new solutions, which both, I think, have a real role to play. And it just feels to me like we’re not focusing enough resources and attention on cleaning up the existing system we have that has worked pretty well for a century now.

Chuck McConnell [00:31:00] Well, you know, you’re absolutely right and I think the heart of the discussion, again, getting back to the emissions being the focus, that’s the centerpiece for our Center for Carbon Management at the University of Houston. It’s the centerpiece for an organization that we support, the carbon neutral coalition.

Chuck McConnell [00:31:19] That’s really in the process of moving that conversation forward at the state legislature, even as we speak right now terms of the opportunities to apply those kinds of state based. Progressive programs that can enable us to meet those energy demands going forward in a sensible way so that we are environmentally responsible,.

Chuck McConnell [00:31:46] But we’re also affordable and reliable and a little bit of the conversation, unfortunately, has gotten skewed to the point where we want to fight about making a decision between the environment and cost. Right. And I would argue, stop that nonsense. Let’s focus on the ways that we can do both, because we have the capability to do that through advanced technologies.

David Blackmon [00:32:17] Now, as a last word, I want to give you the last word we’re up against time, but talk about the online course that you’re about to kick off related to this hydrogen question and let people know where they can go sign up for it if they’re interested in doing it.

Chuck McConnell [00:32:33] Yeah, we have an executive CCUS education course that will begin May the 15th. It is 100% online. You can take it any time of day, whatever pace you wish to, but it’s taught exclusively by subject matter. Experts from the industry globally recognized CCU.S. experts.

Chuck McConnell [00:32:56] We will talk about hydrogen and some of the other marketplace implications as well in this in this course, it’s not a course designed for scientists or engineers. It’s designed for your next door neighbor so that you can get a real techno economic understanding of the value chain of CCUS understand it for what it is, what it can do, what are the implications of it in terms of the application, How does it move the needle in terms of impact and relevance, not just environmental but also commercial?

David Blackmon [00:33:30] Yeah,.

Chuck McConnell [00:33:30] And from the standpoint of where we are in Texas and how that value chain actually plays out, we’re we’re excited about it. It’s an eight week course. It’ll start May the 15th. We will have opportunities for the students that enroll and by the way, we’ve got enrollees already rolling in from frankly, all over the world, not just the state.

David Blackmon [00:33:52] Yeah,.

Chuck McConnell [00:33:52] He’s going to be exciting. I mean, it’ll be an opportunity for people to interact with each other as part of the course. But again, we’ll have a couple of times where we will have synchronous person to person conversations with these subject matter experts, with the students as well. So we’re excited about it. I believe I’ve sent you a link in terms of how to get registered and maybe just last in that out there, your live.

David Blackmon [00:34:18] We’ll put that in the show notes.

Chuck McConnell [00:34:20] Yeah, we’d be we’d love to have you know, we can take as many we don’t have to worry about the size of the room because it’s online. Right. But we’d love to we’d love to be able to get that broad, a diverse type of student group.

Chuck McConnell [00:34:37] And it’s really designed for people that are really in jobs that maybe are transitioning the existing workforce development in terms of people taking on new roles in their industry situations. But it’s also designed for people that are just genuinely curious about new technologies and new business applications that are out there. And and so we’re yeah, we’re excited about that.

David Blackmon [00:35:05] Well, Fantastic! Hey, thank you so much for doing this today and we’re just going to make this a regular feature of The Energy Question with Chuck.

Chuck McConnell [00:35:15] Well, you know, chatting with you is always a pleasure you can get whatever topic you want and we can spend a half an hour any time. So I’d love to do it. And again, thank you for the opportunity and we’ll be talking again soon, I hope.

David Blackmon [00:35:31] Excellent. Yes, sir. And thank you to the Sandstone Group and Stuart Turley for hosting our show and to our extraordinary producer, Eric Parel. I’m David Blackmon, signing off for now.

 

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