The Energy Question Episode 33 –  Chuck McConnell, Energy Center Officer for the UH Center for Carbon Management

 

David Blackmon [00:00:10] Hello, welcome to the Energy question with David Blackmon. I’m your host, David Blackman. And my very special guest today is Chuck McConnell, who is the Energy Center officer at the University of Houston Center for Carbon Management and Energy. Chuck, welcome. Thank you very much for doing the show.

Chuck McConnell [00:00:26] Well, it’s my pleasure to be here, and appreciate you being able to get all that into that title. That’s an awful lot of words there, David.

David Blackmon [00:00:34] I had to read it. I couldn’t memorize you better.

Chuck McConnell [00:00:36] Yeah.

David Blackmon [00:00:38] No, but it’s an impressive title. I know you’re doing some fantastic work at UAH, and that’s really what we’re here to talk about, you know, is the work you’re doing in the environmental space with carbon capture and UAH, the research and also the work you’re doing as an as part of the advisory board for the Carbon Neutral Coalition.

Chuck McConnell [00:00:56] Which is a group here in Texas that we’ll talk about in a minute that’s doing some very important work in that area as well. And in fact, before we get into the Q&A, why don’t you just take a minute to tell our viewers and listeners about the work you’re doing both at UAH and with the Carbon Neutral coalition?

Chuck McConnell [00:01:14] Well, as you age, about five years ago were challenged by our Energy Advisory board, made up of some 30 different companies from various aspects of the business community here in Houston that are the Energy Advisory Board for the University of Houston and to an organization.

Chuck McConnell [00:01:34] They were all challenged by the upcoming aspects of carbon management. What is it going to require? How will we address those challenges? What kind of capabilities will we need? And I think they all recognize that the partnership they have with the University of Houston was essential because there’s a lot of capability, a lot of capacity within our organization to help in that course.

Chuck McConnell [00:01:58] And for us, of course, it’s an opportunity to have the industry very interested in the work that we’re doing, perhaps even shaping and crafting some of the thrusts in which we want to move forward because it’s important that your research be relevant and impactful, not just fun to do stuff for science sake, but in fact the ability to actually have it implemented in the marketplace.

Chuck McConnell [00:02:23] So with that the university made a determination that they wanted to decide. They wanted to create this Center for Carbon management. And that’s when I came on board almost five years ago, the idea being that we would take the internal work of our science, engineering policy, business, and law schools and marry them up within a center of capability so that the external world, those industry folks that I mentioned and others could tap into the university in an effective and efficient manner.

Chuck McConnell [00:02:56] And that’s a challenge, of course, in any university to find that kind of cohesive organization to come into. And so that was the genesis of why we started it. And the Carbon Management Center is dedicated to one single principle in terms of carbon management, and that is a term we define as energy sustainability let me just take a moment to describe what that means to us. It means that energy is available and reliable in a ubiquitous manner to all people.

Chuck McConnell [00:03:28].Secondly, that it be affordable and cost competitive, and Thirdly, that it’d be environmentally responsible and we make sure that we hit that note every time because you can’t just decide to pick one or two. But ultimately the goal is to be able to achieve all three.

Chuck McConnell [00:03:45] And if you can do that, then you can actually move sustainability forward in terms of carbon management so that we can have something that’s going to impact positively again, the environment and also the economy. And so that’s really the fundamentals of what the Carbon Management Center is all about. And we look at it as a wonderful key way into the marketplace and the industry partners that we have. Yeah.

David Blackmon [00:04:10] And you know, when when the energy transitions first started coming into being a popular topic, you know, I’ve written for Forbes for ten years now, and this was three or four years ago really when the media began to really focus on the energy transition. And it’s been apparent to me, having been in the oil industry my whole career, that carbon capture is so fit for purpose for improving the sustainability of the oil and gas industry because one of the reasons I think and I wonder about your views on this is,.

David Blackmon [00:04:43] Is that when you look at what’s involved in a carbon capture and storage project, it’s basically the same kinds of disciplines the scientists, the engineers that many of these companies already have on staff like Exxon Mobil, for example, which is, you know, mounting the huge carbon capture and storage project centered right there in Houston. You know, it already has all the engineers and scientists you need and drilling, you know, and completions professionals, operational professionals that are also necessary to mount a successful carbon capture and storage project. I mean, do you see that as well those synergies in staffing?

Chuck McConnell [00:05:21] Yeah, I sure do, David. And I think in time we back to your original statement about the energy transition. You know, a lot of people have different definitions of what does that mean? Yeah. And as we’ve defined it in terms of energy sustainability and making that transition to that more sustainable future is really sort of the tagline for the carbon neutral coalition. And I know we’re going to get that to a dull moment here, but that’s really the fundamentals and we embrace the idea that there isn’t one single answer.

Chuck McConnell [00:05:50] There’s a portfolio of choices and certainly some of the things that often get top of mind with people in terms of wind and solar and some of these other renewable pathways, all important, all growing in a big way, but also recognizing from our perspective that over 80% of the world’s energy is provided by hydrocarbons and those hydrocarbons and the carbon intensity of the fuels and the electricity and everything that we’re producing from those hydrocarbons.

Chuck McConnell [00:06:21] Absolutely. I mean, those industries have those talents, have the capabilities. And what troubles me often is that people will define carbon capture as nothing more than a perpetuation of the fossil fuel industry.

David Blackmon [00:06:36] Right.

Chuck McConnell [00:06:37] By the fossil fuel industry, people couldn’t be any further from the truth. What it is, is for people to take advantage of the core competencies and capabilities of the companies that you just mentioned they’re. In those areas where you can apply technology to make a huge impact. And we’re talking about that being the scale of the impact and also the ability to reduce those emissions because we repeat it all the time. It’s about the emissions, it’s not about the fuel.

Chuck McConnell [00:07:08] And if you think about it that way and you think about how you can move the needle on emissions reduction in the most impactful manner possible, those companies that you just referenced and the businesses that they’re in and will continue to be in for at least the next 50 years.

David Blackmon [00:07:25] Right.

Chuck McConnell [00:07:25] As a society, we’re going to require those hydrocarbons, but we also require the transformative technologies to enable those fuels to actually be environmentally responsible. And so you would think it would make sense to everybody. And yet, perversely, in some instances, environmentalists think it’s nothing more than a perpetuation of the fossil fuel industry, forgetting completely that the technologies we’re talking about are about emissions reduction, yet on the other side of the coin, you may have environmental deniers if you will, those that don’t believe that there’s anything required to reduce carbon emissions.

Chuck McConnell [00:08:05] And that’s a challenging group of folks as well. In terms of climate science and issues like that. I don’t go down that lane. I look at the lane that says, “Look, here’s where the world is going, here’s where the be fundamentals of the market are shifting”. And for Texas to understand how important it is as an existential threat to reduce the carbon intensity of the products and services that we produce.

Chuck McConnell [00:08:30] If we can do that and do it and lead, the world will not only help ourselves with our existing products, but we can take that technology and we can move it globally. And now you’re talking about opening up new markets and new capabilities all over the world. It’s an opportunity for business as much as it is for the environment.

David Blackmon [00:08:48] And that’s what’s, you know, and I think we’ve had a real evolution in that respect, as is the business world, recognizing and understanding now what an opportunity is, not just carbon capture and storage, but some of these other technologies present to them just in terms of a business opportunity that can be profitable and sustainable and also improve, you know, their core business and the performance, the sustainability of that.

David Blackmon [00:09:15] . And I know that that has a lot to do with the work you’re doing at the Carbon Neutral Coalition. My, audience will be familiar with the Coalition. I’ve already, you know, in the past I’ve interviewed Sean Strawbridge and Susan Collins, who are also on the board of Advisors. But Susan, you know, just had such glowing things to say about the work you’re doing there at the Coalition. So I wanted to be sure and talk to you the next day to talk about, you know, your involvement there at the coalition and the kinds of things you’re working on there.

Chuck McConnell [00:09:44] Well, Susan’s very generous with her praise. I will say. We’re all enthused and excited about the leadership that our fearless leader, Corby Robertson, has shown in terms of pulling this coalition together and moving us forward. Let me say something about an item that you mentioned here before I roll into that though, and that is about the workforce. It’s about the workforce of the future.

Chuck McConnell [00:10:08] Frankly, that’s the group that Corby asked me to lead was the futures group. How is this all going to evolve and how do we take all these capabilities, and changes into the future and really create the future for the Texas workforce as a big part of that? And as I’ve said to many of the students, even here at the University Houston campus, you know, you don’t have to go to work for Google or Amazon to change the world.

Chuck McConnell [00:10:34] If you want to really impact the world, you can work in the oil and gas industry. You can work in the hydrocarbon industry in these types of transformative technologies and evolution that is going to actually impact the planet. I would say far more so than some of the other more talked about things that you read about in the marketplace in terms of options for the future.

Chuck McConnell [00:10:58] If we’re able to decarbonize the hydrocarbon value chain through things like carbon capture and methane conversion and methane emissions reductions and all those things, that’s going to be a far bigger impact. You know, the other thing that people don’t recognize, almost 60% of the total energy in the world is not electricity. And so when you start thinking about changing the world simply by wind and solar, you’re not even touching the larger half of the energy picture in and of itself. Forget about the fact that even in the electricity segment, less than 10% of that is wind and solar also.

Chuck McConnell [00:11:36] Now, I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with wind and solar. I’m just saying we’ve got a long way to go. And we have a lot of aspects about many of the choices we’re making all across the value chain in terms of the life cycle analysis, not just how independently good it is in terms of when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining. But what happens to those facilities at the end of their natural life? How do we decommission those things? Is it really renewable? And I would argue it isn’t.

Chuck McConnell [00:12:09] There’s certainly a footprint for everything and as we look at the hydrocarbon industry, we also have to recognize there is a footprint and we’re taking those steps through the carbon neutral coalition to address how can we decarbonize. That’s the operative word. And if we’re able to do that and achieve that in that kind of a pathway, that’s where we’re going to make the big impact.

David Blackmon [00:12:31] And the opportunity is just huge in Texas. I mean, I want you to talk about that, too, because I’ve been to Texas and Louisiana Gulf Coast, really, as far as I can tell from conversations I’ve had, it represents really one of the two or three biggest potential prizes where carbon capture and storage is concerned on the face of the earth. I mean, it’s made but truly is dangerous. But there is a.

Chuck McConnell [00:12:55] David, there’s no doubt about that. I mean, a couple of years ago I was fortunate to be part of the National Petroleum Council study as we looked at all of the United States and all of the opportunities for carbon capture, utilization, and storage, and it was very clearly identified that there were. First of all, it wasn’t a technology that was going to be applicable everywhere for everyone, which was a good recognition, because what it said is, look, we’re not trying to describe this as a silver bullet, but it is an essential part,  not an opportunity, not an option, but an essential part of meeting any climate targets.

Chuck McConnell [00:13:35] And that’s not me talking. It’s not the National Petroleum Council, it’s the International Energy Agency and talking about it in terms of the impact that the CCU.S. will have to have to be able to meet this. And so one of the results from the Medpc study was identifying the key elements for us. And one, you have to have a concentrated amount of emitters, not just a one-off or a1z and A to Z, but the kinds of scaled amounts of emissions in a rather central area.

Chuck McConnell [00:14:09] Secondly, you got to have good infrastructure. You have to have the ability to have pipes and have the infrastructure in place to be able to move this material around. And you have to have good, excellent proximal geology that is both permeable and it’s safe and stored the ability of the geology itself to be able to receive that CO2.

Chuck McConnell [00:14:33] And if you get that trifecta, which we have in the Gulf Coast in spades, we are one of the preferred areas in the world where investments at scale like this can actually be achieved. And if you do that, if we can do that will not only be making a big impact for us locally in the Gulf Coast but will set the stage for the world as the rest of the world watches us actually achieve something not just propped up by government funding or a government type of research investment.

Chuck McConnell [00:15:08] This is institutional research. This is the commercial deployment of the most critical technology and my belief in all of the climate mitigation technologies. We’ve got to do it at scale. No better place to do it than the Gulf Coast and then take it to places like Shanghai, Singapore, India, and Indonesia, all the places where the huge amount of emissions are occurring. And that’s the trick here. We got to act locally, but we got to think globally because that’s the way we’re going to actually solve this global climate challenge.

David Blackmon [00:15:41] Know and the trifecta you talked about having, having the emitters, you know, a large number and you know, in a very concentrated location, the infrastructure being there, the underground storage space being there. I mean, you just describe places like the Houston Ship Channel, for example, the Beaumont, the Golden Triangle area, the Baton Rouge area, Corpus Christi with the port, and all the refining.

Chuck McConnell [00:16:07] David, what goes with that? It’s not just the geography and those types of indigenous advantages, but then you have a business community and a state that recognizes the opportunity and puts the necessary policies in place to support a nascent industry like this. Look, Texas went completely all in on the wind and solar deployment and where do we stand today? We’re the leading state in the country in terms of being able to promote those new technologies moving into our marketplace.

Chuck McConnell [00:16:41] We have a similar opportunity with carbon capture, utilization, and storage. We’d be foolish not to take advantage of it in terms of leadership, not just in the U.S. but the world. So you’re absolutely right. But it’s it’s also a match with the kind of policies that the state can bring forward. And then as you mentioned earlier, and it can’t be anything other than the top of mind. We’ve got great people in Texas. Yeah, they’re smart. They know what they’re doing. They’ve worked in this industry. They have the capabilities to put it to practice and so I think we’ve got all of the cards on our side of the table.

David Blackmon [00:17:19] Yeah. And you talk about having the policies in place and, you know, we all like to make fun of our politicians. I certainly do. But here in Texas, when you really look at what Texas has done, I mean, there have been some glitches with the grid and things like that. But overall, over the last 2 to 3 decades, really, the energy policy in the state of Texas has been pretty visionary and in a lot of ways and gave I mean, you just talked about with wind and solar and going all in and all that. And yeah, we lead the whole country and wind power right now. And our solar sector is exploding in Texas right now. And but, but also with, you know, encouraging oil and gas and being the leader of that. We’re the fifth largest oil producer in the world in Texas.

Chuck McConnell [00:18:04] I think it’s also fair to recognize from a political and policy standpoint that many of these challenges are now very new. They’re coming to the fore as we’re speaking. Right. And so it’s not as if everyone just has a magical answer already this is an evolutionary process. This is a big reason why the carbon neutral coalition was formed so that we can be an educational tool to move these areas like carbon capture, utilization, and storage forward.

Chuck McConnell [00:18:36] What kind of challenges do we have in terms of rights of way, land rights, mineral rights, the ability to actually have the permitting in place for the injection wells that are going forward? The state of Texas pursuing primacy in terms of being able to get these Class six wells approved through a process that the state of Texas can be in control of because we have the capabilities because we have the smart people, We’ve made our application to the federal EPA.

Chuck McConnell [00:19:05] And I’ve said it more than once, if we’re going to make an impact, we have to get primacy here in the state so that we’re not tied up in some sort of a federal cue. We need to have our own cue here in Texas. And for those that are interested in carbon capture, utilization, and storage, not unlike the state of North Dakota or Wyoming, these states have already made that decision and received primacy. And we’re not far behind.

Chuck McConnell [00:19:31] So we’re pretty excited about that. And we’re working very closely, not just with the policymakers, but we’re also trying to make a strong effort to reach out to the NGO community so that we’re doing it right, not just trying to move it forward with an industry focus exclusively, but with a community engagement focus so that we’re really doing the work, having the communities that it impacts, engaged and involved.

Chuck McConnell [00:19:56] There’s upside in this for everybody, we have to understand. And that’s a big part of what our carbon-neutral coalition is about. And frankly, what we’re doing at the university here is doing that education. Making certain people know the facts, not just getting it from some somebody on Twitter or something like that with an opinion. We want to have a fact-based approach to what we’re talking about.

David Blackmon [00:20:19] Yeah, you mentioned a minute ago utilization, which is the leader in CCUS that tends to get lost in the discussion too often I think talk about the potential for utilization, not just taking the car and putting it underground and storing it, but actually using it to make things. I mean, that the potential there is is fairly limitless really if you know if it can be scaled up and encouraged in the right way from a public policy pushback.

Chuck McConnell [00:20:46] Where you’re absolutely right. I mean, again, it’s about scale and impact. I mean, there. First of all, let me say that we’ve been utilizing CO2 in Texas for over 50 years out in the Permian. We’ve done enhanced oil recovery for many, many years, utilize CO2, putting it in formations, and producing additional barrels of oil. Just a fabulous way to go.

Chuck McConnell [00:21:10] Now, much of that CO2, if we’re able to replace what we’re currently doing with CO2 that actually comes from these industrial facilities, the term often used is anthropogenic or manmade CO2 if we’re able to replace that CO2 with manmade CO2.  Think about this it might be a little counterintuitive, but if you can take manmade CO2, put it into those formations to produce additional oil, and then in the process store that CO2.

Chuck McConnell [00:21:41] There have been a number of calculations on the lifecycle that would suggest that the next barrel of oil that you produce is pretty close to carbon neutral in terms of its overall lifecycle impact. That’s pretty important. Now that really bothers many people in the environmental community because they just want to stop using internal combustion engines and go all-electric. But if you really think about it pragmatically, it’s an opportunity to utilize CO2 in a big way we’ve been doing it for years and years, and I think it’s an opportunity to continue to grow that utilization.

Chuck McConnell [00:22:15] But here’s the other thing. As we get more and more creative, the transformational technology that we develop and deploy becomes more cost competitive. We can produce chemicals from sea air, we can produce materials from CO2. We can do things with CO2 that frankly, previously we hadn’t really thought about it because CO2 really talking about it in terms of, well, so what we just ran went of the atmosphere.

Chuck McConnell [00:22:43] Well, we recognized now the light bulbs gone off and we’ve recognized there is opportunity. But hey, look, we’ve been putting CO2 into things for years. Every time you drink Coca-Cola, you’re ingesting it. And a lot of people would call CO2 poison, for gosh sake.

Chuck McConnell [00:22:59] And you think about the perversity of that kind of thought process. I mean, it’s not poison. It’s not something that’s going to kill you, but it is something that if we can utilize it and make those plastics and materials and do those kinds of things, we’re just doing ourselves good in terms of being sensible rather than just inventing it as a waste.

David Blackmon [00:23:21] Yeah. Do you feel like the knee-jerk reaction opposition from the environmental community to CCS is diminishing over time as this realization? I think there’s just a growing realization, even at the IEA now that we’re, you know, demand for oil is going to continue to rise globally for many years to come. It’s we’re not going to do this transition in ten years. Like Joe Biden keeps saying.

David Blackmon [00:23:47] Yeah. Do you feel like it seems to me anyway, the intensity of the opposition to CCUS from the environmental community has maybe not lessened, may not be the right word, but kind of shifted in the argument to now talking about, well, but carbon capture really doesn’t work. Okay, we’ve got to fix it because it doesn’t work right, rather than just opposing it outright. Are you saying that or is it just my imagination?

Chuck McConnell [00:24:17] Well, first of all, let me say, I think one of the problems we have generally is we generalize too much. I think, again, for different communities where CCUS has been deployed, there are various kinds of reactions that are largely driven by the kind of community engagement that occurs or hasn’t occurred.

Chuck McConnell [00:24:42] We’ve got opportunities to impact society in a big way. I think generally people are seeing that carbon capture utilization and storage is not an option to be debated, but it’s a requirement that has to be refined and that is that it be effective. And we’ve proven through multiple demonstrations and a tremendous amount of investment by the Federal of Government in the Department of Energy, etc., to prove our project, to do the kinds of things that are proven to be technically and commercially viable and that it does work.

Chuck McConnell [00:25:21] Now, all of that being said, there are some communities where, you know, they see the value and are very quick to move on it. We have a wonderful opportunity right here in Texas at the Petrino facility that people have been pointing at for the last three years as a failure. And it’s far from a failure. In fact, it’s an incredible success story where we’ve captured CO2 from a coal-fired power plant. We’ve pike it to an oil field, and it worked. Now, that project didn’t take advantage of 45 CU tax credits, it did get support from the Department of Energy in terms of the installation.

Chuck McConnell [00:25:57] But when oil prices went south a few years ago, the project wasn’t in the money anymore. Well, it’s now been recapitalized. It’s going to restart and we’re going to have one of the world scale fully integrated carbon capture utilization projects in the world, operational right here in south of Houston. And it’s a great success story. More of that coming because the federal government has also recognized we’ve moved the 45 CU tax credits up.

Chuck McConnell [00:26:27] We’ve enabled the commercialization to occur and again, on the front end of any kind of new technology. That’s what the federal government’s supposed to be doing, not propping up industries for 20 and 30 years, but certainly to be able to give that initial momentum to an industry like this. We’re seeing that already and we’re seeing a lot of development work going on. It’s challenging. It’s not inexpensive. Everybody says, look, costs too much. Look, the energy transition is going to cost no matter what you do.

David Blackmon [00:26:57] Okay, Trillion, just.

Chuck McConnell [00:26:58] Stop talking about it being something that we’re going to do and it’s going to be cheaper. It’s not going to be cheap or it’s not going to be spending additional capital. And whether you talk about deploying renewables and all of the additional infrastructure that’s necessary and the batteries and the backup and everything else, contrast that with carbon capture, utilization, and storage.

Chuck McConnell [00:27:21] And I would say right now, don’t pick one horse, evaluate everything to its conclusion so that you really know what you’re choosing. Don’t go down one path blindly and then simply defend it against everything else, but have the openness to understand that, you really need to understand all the detail, the full economic analysis, the lifecycle analysis, and the choices that you’re making, and then make the best choice. But in any choice that you make, this whole energy transition is going to cost us all as a society.

Chuck McConnell [00:27:57] And I think once we get past that point to understand it, and frankly, that’s one of the big challenges globally with billions of people in the world living in poverty, they don’t care about their carbon footprint. Okay? So what we need to do is get technology to the point in the developed world that we can take it to the developing world and deploy it so those people can actually get that same uplift and have that same impact. If all we’re doing is solving our own problems and putting ourselves on the back and not taking it globally, we haven’t done anything. We’re not accumulating anything yet.

David Blackmon [00:28:34] Yeah, So listen, these half hours go in a heck of a hurry. I just can’t believe it. We’re already at the time. I want to before we go, though, tell people they want to find out more about what you’re doing at UAH, where they can find you, where they can go. Look, I know you’ve got a website set up, and.

Chuck McConnell [00:28:49] We do have a website, but I really appreciate the question that you ask because I think it’s what I’m most excited about here recently is we have developed an executive education course on carbon capture utilization and storage, and it’s actually taught by many subject matter experts from the marketplace that represent the oil and gas industry, the pipeline industry, the technology industries in terms of carbon capture, a world-class suite of instructors from the marketplace.

Chuck McConnell [00:29:23] We designed it and designed it as a course that you can take asynchronously on, you know, remotely. We are actually giving executive education course credits for this, and will be releasing this class in early May, and I would expect that the marketing information is going to come out to the marketplace very, very quickly as to how people can register and I think when you see the cast of characters, I’m yours truly is blessed to be surrounded by a bunch of smart people that have been able to put this together.

Chuck McConnell [00:29:58] And we’re just delighted to be able to offer this to the marketplace. So if I could, I’d like you to stay tuned on that and understand that it will be very, very. Very soon coming out. That’s the whole key here. Understanding the entirety of the value chain. Understanding technology and economics as well as policy-making. That’s what this class is all about. And that’s really the formula for real understanding.

David Blackmon [00:30:23] Yeah, I might have to sign up for it myself.

Chuck McConnell [00:30:25] Well, I’m going to I’m going to take that as a yes, and I’ll make sure you get a registration like that.

David Blackmon [00:30:30] Okay. Yeah. No, I’m actually I’m not getting up, but am for sure.

Chuck McConnell [00:30:34] Neither am I. Yeah. Yeah.

David Blackmon [00:30:37] Well, when it comes, you know, when it goes live, let’s cycle back and talk about it. I should get more information, but thank you. I am. We’re done here. Unfortunately, we’re over time, But I really enjoyed this. And yeah, for sure, we need to track back again. Thank you so much for being here.

Chuck McConnell [00:30:53] You can afford to cut and paste whatever you want, but if you’re able to keep that last portion of it, David that’d be cool. We will because. Oh, well, I mean, I’m serious about that. I think it’s going to be a rather impactful offering to the marketplace. So delighted you’re interested.

David Blackmon [00:31:09] We’re breaking news here, folks. That’s all for today. Thank you. Thank you so much, Chuck. I really appreciate it. Talk to you again soon. And thanks to the folks at at the Sandstone Group for hosting our shoe show when our extraordinary producer, Eric Burrell. I’m David Blackmon, signing off for now and we’ll talk to you again soon.

 

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