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In this podcast episode, Stuart Turley discusses the evolving energy sector with Mitch Rolling and Isaac Orr from “Energy Bad Boys” on Substack.
They explore the concept of energy de-industrialization in Germany and its potential implications for the U.S., focusing on the relationship between renewable energy integration and rising consumer costs. The conversation also addresses the regulatory incentives that lead utilities to favor expensive infrastructure projects that increase profits at ratepayers’ expense. They propose legislation aimed at aligning utility investments with consumer interests, highlighting the challenges posed by powerful utility lobbies in implementing such reforms.
Thank you, Mitch and Isaac, for your time; I had an absolute blast. I want to extend an open invitation for you both to hop on the podcast any time. – Stu
Please follow the Energy Bad Boys on their Substack HERE: https://energybadboys.substack.com/
Check out Mitch Rolling’s LinkedIn HERE:https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchell-rolling/
Check out Isaac Orr’s LinkedIn HERE: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isaac-orr-b0732665/
Highlights of the Podcast
00:00 – Intro
01:07 – Introduction of Mitch Rolling and Isaac Orr, the “Energy Bad Boys.”
03:20 – Mitch discusses his data analysis role in energy policy.
04:25 – Isaac on simplifying complex energy concepts.
07:12 – Incentives for utilities to build costly infrastructure.
10:16 – Discussion on utilities as regulated monopolies.
14:20 – Comparing nuclear energy to wind and solar.
18:00 – Economic aspects of wind farms and subsidies.
21:40 – Personal stories from the “Energy Bad Boys.”
22:33 – Introducing the “Only Pay for What You Get Act.”
27:34 – Legislative challenges due to utility lobbying.
30:11 – Collaboration with Texas experts on ERCOT issues.
33:06 – Preview of upcoming Substack topics.
34:38 – Projects with North Dakota Transmission Authority.
Energy News Beat – https://energynewsbeat.co/
Energy News Beat Podcast: https://energynewsbeat.co/conversationwithstu/
Stuart Turley [00:00:07] Hello, everybody. We have an energy de-industrialization going on in Germany, but is it coming to the United States very quickly? But yet, let’s also take a look. Why is it that the energy consumers, the energy the consumers are paying since 2005 to now has gone up, and in California it has doubled. But yet we’ve had 15% increase of wind and solar from that same time period. Is it related or in Arkansas? Are they related and married to each other? I’m not real sure, but I’ve got two fantastic guys that are stopping by the podcast today. Let me give an introduction to the energy Bad Boys. I mean, they’re on Substack and you’ve got to follow them and support them. I have Mitch rolling, and I mean, he is on here and he’s been dominating the conversation as we just started it. Mitch, thank you for stopping by today.
Mitch Rolling [00:01:08] Thank you so much for having us.
Stuart Turley [00:01:10] Boy, that’s the most you’ve said in our entire conversation. All right. And then also his buddy and his partner, Isaac or Isaac. Thank you for stopping by today.
Isaac Orr [00:01:21] Yeah. Happy to be here.
Stuart Turley [00:01:23] I can’t wait to begin to find out, because you guys are rock stars. You’ve got a balance in your, how you’ve got your plan working, and you’re good buddies with Robert Bryce. I love Robert. He’s been on the podcast three times, and, you guys have got a great Substack. Tell us how you got started.
Isaac Orr [00:01:44] Well, mentioned I’ve been working at center of the American experiment, which is a, policy think tank in Minnesota for the last several years. So, that’s where we have been doing the yeoman’s share of our work in energy. And it was like, what, five months ago? Mitch Domergue quoted us in one of his articles. I think it was debunking the levelized cost of energy. And after that it was like, okay, this is the sign we’ve been waiting for because Mitch and I had been kind of kicking the tires on Substack for a while. I remember in May, we’re like, okay, what’s the name of our what’s the name of our, Substack going to be? We’re like, okay, energy, bad boys. That’s cool. And then we’re like, what’s our logo going to be? So we thought about it for a while and we’re like, we definitely want it to be a fork inside of an electrical socket. So. After after doom, Virg, retweeted us. We, put up this article that we had written for Senator the American experiments quarterly magazine, Thinking Minnesota called enjoy the Blackouts, Jack. And you know, that was very well received. It really helped that doom burg. restack us on the platform and has been very supportive of our, our efforts so far. So, it’s been a really fun ride. We’ve been going since I think it was November 12th. We we posted that and as of today, we’ve almost got, 2600 subscribers. So it’s been it’s been a fun ride. And, we’re looking forward to keeping it going.
Stuart Turley [00:03:12] Van tastic. And so, Mitch, what do you what have you got going on on that? So you’re the data, dude?
Mitch Rolling [00:03:20] Yep, yep. We both we both write, but I do more of the, you know, digging for the bodies, uncovering stuff and data filings and whatnot, what most people would consider the boring work. But I seem to have fun with it. I would do it on my free time. So lucky I get paid for it. You know, I like to uncover what they’re not telling on the front page of of a lot of these violence. So, you know, I really enjoy it.
Stuart Turley [00:03:49] Okay. I’m telling you, this is kind of fun because I just interviewed Doom Burg with Chris Wright, CEO of, Liberty Energy. I love Chris Wright. Absolutely a great human. And then doom burg. This is my third interview. It’s my third with Chris as well, too. And then my third, interview with Doom Bird. And I love Doom Burg, and it’s so cool that he’s got the reach. He’s like the number one in energy and finance out there. And you guys are really growing as well. So humor wins doesn’t it?
Isaac Orr [00:04:25] Yeah. Yeah. That and you know, one of the things, that I always try to do when I’m writing an article is I just stick with the mantra, don’t make me think. Right. So, the thing that I want, I want to write an article in such a.
Stuart Turley [00:04:40] Way, make me think.
Isaac Orr [00:04:42] Yes. So I want to write an article in a way where the, the, the reader just intuitively understands what we are trying to convey. I do not want, every time a reader has to sit and say, well, I don’t know if I quite understand what that means. That’s a friction point, and that is probably a point where they’re going to lose interest in the article, or they can get frustrated. So, what we specialize in is boiling down very complicated concepts and hopefully explain it in a way that people just kind of get it right. We use analogies that kind of just it just clicks. And ultimately energy is a very, opaque. And it can be very complicated, subject matter. So what we want to do is we want to bring this to the masses, which is why, you know, we’re really proud of the articles that we’ve just written on the website, the green plating the Grid article and the industrialization article. So, you know, this doesn’t have to be opaque and complicated, but a lot of the stakeholders that are in this industry, whether it’s the utilities or the lawmakers, the public utility commissioners or the environmental groups, they want to make this seem so overwhelming that normal people cannot participate. They’re basically trying to keep the conversation. And we’re saying, no, that doesn’t have to be the case.
Stuart Turley [00:06:01] You know, I, I love it for me, sitting back and looking at the amount of content that my team puts out, you know, I’m including, Irina Slav, on the podcast, Tammy Nemeth, David Blackmon, Ray Trevino, Michael Tanner and myself and we and the doctor, we we get this stuff out here. But you guys, I love your methodology. And. Mitchell, how you phrase digging up the bodies, you know, I’m sorry that you got some talent. You to have a good working relationship. Have you all known each other since kindergarten?
Mitch Rolling [00:06:40] Well, actually, we’ve known each other since I became an intern at the center of the American experiment. So that was what, March 2018. I came in and I think six years. Yeah. So you you actually were hired right around that time to, and so I was an intern, and Isaac was pretty much the only one that utilized me, and it just became a working pair, you know, since then and, yeah, we really have complemented each other. You know, like we said, I dig up the bodies. We’re both writers. But Isaac puts that, you know, don’t make me think flavor on to it. Right. Worked well.
Stuart Turley [00:07:12] You know, and and understanding where I’m at, you know, as far as, as, really trying to focus on ending energy poverty through the delivering the lowest kilowatt per hour to everyone on the planet, by delivering sustainable, energy, fiscally responsible energy, without printing money and having the least amount of impact on the environment, everybody kind of shakes her head. Oh, yeah, that’s exactly right. And then you start mentioning, oh, wait a minute, wind and solar are a, you know, un capable of doing that. And they’re a money grab. And, you know, you start in, they’re not recyclable and, and all this other kind of stuff. You guys nailed it with the grid on the green plating. And I was like, I got to get you guys on podcast. And I saw that. And I was like, I want to make sure that you get your story out here because you articulated it better than I could have.
Isaac Orr [00:08:14] Well. That’s great. Should we talk about that piece, then?
Stuart Turley [00:08:17] Absolutely. Okay, cool. Because, also this goes hand in hand with your other one, which is deindustrialization of Germany, which is happening intentionally. And that’s a whole other geopolitical thing that I’ve been talking to folks all over the world about. And let’s go ahead and kick off. What were you thinking?
Isaac Orr [00:08:39] Yeah, yeah. So I think the most important thing for a lot of your listeners to understand is that vertically integrated monopoly utility companies, which is the model for most of the country, right? There are very there’s a handful of states that have a more competitive, you know, they’ve d I guess they’ve d structured or unstructured, the generation of, electricity. But most states from that we’ve seen or worked in have still been pretty much vertically integrated. And those are not really private companies. They are government approved monopoly utilities and those. Yeah. And that’s what it is like. I think conservatives need to understand that the utility company is not a private company. It is this monopoly that’s created by the government, and it has the exclusive right to sell electricity in its service territory, so there can be no competition. So, all competition will be squelched. So, it would be unfair to allow the utility company to charge whatever they want for electricity because there’s no competition, right? So the price of electricity in these areas is set by regulators, government regulators at the Public Service Commission, Public Utilities Commission, whatever it’s called. And it uses a formula called the cost of service formula. And people’s eyes always glaze over whenever you say formula. But stay with me, people. It’s actually pretty simple. It says.
Stuart Turley [00:10:04] For for our podcast listeners, Isaac, I just want to say, Mitch, is I started glowing when you said formula and and I mean, he started almost purring. So anyway, sorry, I didn’t mean it.
Isaac Orr [00:10:16] He loves it. He was, he’s got his masters in finance, so he’s like, yes. The formula. So is just the mad scientist in his lab. And, anyway, this formula says that a utility company can charge enough for its electricity to cover the cost of providing service to everybody, plus a 10% profit whenever they build something new. And that new expansion, that new construction is approved by the regulator. Right. So this gives utility companies a powerful incentive to build as new, as much new stuff as the regulator will let them get away with. And on the other end of this equation is depreciation. So every year a utility pays off a power plant. A little bit more. Think about like when you’re paying off a mortgage every every month, every year you’re paying off less interest in more principal. So once this asset is completely depreciated, it is providing the lowest cost, most reliable electricity on the grid, but it is no longer creating a profit for the utility because its book value is technically zero. Even though it’s a great asset, it’s the best asset for the ratepayer. So we have go ahead and do.
Stuart Turley [00:11:29] Yeah yeah ratepayer. But you know you sit back and kind of go it’s financial. And the ratepayers always getting it in the drive through as Joe Pesci said, you know, in you know, Lethal Weapon.
Isaac Orr [00:11:44] Absolutely. So what’s happening now is, utilities have a strong incentive to be as inefficient as possible when it comes to how they spend money. As long as the regular says a regulator says it’s okay. And, many times the regulator is perfectly happy to approve new wind, solar battery storage, what have you and the closed down the coal plants. So, wind and solar are the inefficiencies that utility companies are looking for. And the fact that wind and solar don’t work very well is an incredible bonus, because every time you shut down a coal plant, you are able to replace it with probably an equivalent amount of wind. So let’s just say ten megawatts. This is what we said in our piece, right? You said you shut down on ten megawatt coal plant. You’re able to build ten megawatts of wind, ten megawatts of solar and then ten megawatts of natural gas, because there will inevitably be a period where you need all ten megawatts of natural gas in order to back up that wind and solar. So you’ve essentially tripled the size of the grid, tripled your cash outlay for, new generation. And the utility is making tons of profits. And I don’t know, Mitch, do you want to elaborate on the kinds of profits that we’re talking about? Because it’s billions of dollars.
Mitch Rolling [00:13:01] Yeah. Yeah, it’s it’s billions and it’s company after company that’s doing it too. And they’ve grown at a massive scale, to the point where Morningstar has suggested that, you know, the utility industry is now a growth industry when it was supposed to, you know, be kind of a slow and steady industry.
Stuart Turley [00:13:19] Oh, yeah.
Mitch Rolling [00:13:20] And it was Travis Miller in there. That was that was in the in the Morningstar piece that was talking about. Yeah. You know, this is the best growth, environment that we’ve seen utilities have in a while. And it’s because of electrification, EVs and clean energy goals. And we didn’t say it in the piece. But Travis Miller goes on to say that in the States where they’re less likely to approve rate increases, this growth environment doesn’t exist. And so growth environment exists where you can improve approve rate increases and do your clean energy goals, but not where they’re not going to approve that stuff. So you kind of put two and two together. What’s causing the rate increases? It’s it’s these utility profits that are just skyrocketing and we use it XL, DTE energy, DTE energy, APS and we energies.
Isaac Orr [00:14:12] Yeah. Arizona public service we energies is in Wisconsin. Is in Detroit.
Mitch Rolling [00:14:17] So yeah.
Stuart Turley [00:14:20] Arizona now do they are they the ones maintaining the nuclear facility out there? Yeah, because I’ve been through that nuclear facility and it’s pretty darn cool. I mean, still, it’s. Oh, yeah.
Isaac Orr [00:14:31] We love nuclear.
Stuart Turley [00:14:32] And yeah.
Isaac Orr [00:14:33] One of the reasons we love it is because the plants last for 80 years, right? So when we’re thinking about the perpetual cash machine that wind and solar are for these utilities, a wind turbine lasts maybe 20 years. A lot of them are being re powered after only 10 or 11. We write about that on our Substack, too. It’s in an article called A death of a Wind Farm.
Isaac Orr [00:14:55] So it’s. So. And solar panels only last for 25 years.
Stuart Turley [00:15:02] So you could let me throw. Yeah. Let me throw this squirrel at you. Your points are dead on, right? And I want to I want to jump in here because I get excited, and I’m a hyperactive rat child. Okay, I’ve found that the wind farms are fiscally unsustainable from day one. Without injections, from tax incentives. Slash. Same thing. Warren Buffett said don’t invest in a wind farm unless it’s got tax subsidies. Now everybody said 20 years, 30 years, blah, blah, blah blah. Back that number back down to eight. Eight seems to be the mean time between failure and warranty repairs. Six seems to be where it really starts coming in and when the rates can’t get approved. You guys nailed it. I didn’t articulate it well so far, and that is in that eight year mark, they start revamping it like Robert Bryce said, that they’re coming back in and saying, hey, they’re they’re applying for funds from the particulars. Bill, as Dan Bongino calls the info in an Inflation Reduction Act. And then the infrastructure bill, which both have a bunch of crap in it. So then they come back and do that, even that, on that eight year mark, in that six year mark, it is graft. It is, terrible. It is stealing. It is. And nobody I haven’t been able to figure out the future cost of money formula. And, Mitchell, you’re gonna love this one when you sit back. And I got my MBA billions of years ago, I couldn’t remember a single formula. And so what is the dollar amount that this bloated, particulars bill going back around to these utilities having on our, national budget and the inflation to the consumers and the rate. So if we’re at a ballpark 20, you can see where I’m going with this, right? Am I, so we’re at a 20% inflation under Biden and Nomics, you know, Biden economics when you’re talking food and everything else. Right? What is our national debt going to do to us that is directly impacted by the high cost of energy? And you look at California, I’m having a data dump right now, you know, guys. And so California’s at 100% increase in electricity rates from 2005 to 2000 and, 22, I believe, is what the EPA, just put out. And so is that or you guys did. I’m stealing the information from everywhere. So. Yeah. And so you can see where I’m going with this. I want to know we don’t know how bad it is. I mean, is that a fair statement? Did I just go off the rails and totally missed the. Boat.
Isaac Orr [00:18:01] No.
Mitch Rolling [00:18:01] I mean, you’re right. Yeah, it’s it’s going to be bad. We don’t know how bad.
Isaac Orr [00:18:05] But.
Isaac Orr [00:18:07] Travis Fisher from Cato says that we’re going to be spending $3 trillion or up to $3 trillion on wind and solar subsidies through 2050, because, you know, in the Inflation Production Act, they said, that the it was something along the lines of these subsidies will last until 2032 or until our targeted CO2 reduction goals are met, which effectively could make this these subsidies permanent. Right. So that was one of the things. Well, right. Yes. So that was that’s one of the things that he talks about a lot, is this is essentially an uncapped spending bill. So hopefully, hopefully we have a complete change of the guard when it comes to, who’s in office, you know, after November. And because they passed this reconciliation, you can repeal that pretty easily in theory. But we need, you know, conservatives in the legislature, free marketers in the legislature to have the the fortitude. You can you can insert whatever body part you want in front of fortitude, in order to repeal these. Repeal these, these subsidies. And many times it’s been, folks from the Great Plains, like Senator Grassley, who have championed the wind production tax credit. So, you know, there ultimately needs to be a recognition in conservative circles for policymakers that the subsidies that we’ve been providing for wind and solar are actively undermining the reliability of the electric grid. And this isn’t a cute little gimme or pet project for your state anymore. This is an existential threat to the country or the country’s competitiveness when it comes to manufacturing, mining, you name it. Like, if we want to be a global superpower, we can’t keep subsidizing energy sources that do not work well.
Stuart Turley [00:19:57] No. And you guys are just nailing it right down the park on that. And, you know, it’s kind of like I didn’t learn enough about the grid until I read the book Shorting the Grid by, Meredith Angwin I love Meredith. She is a national treasure. Speaking about the grid instability and and everything else. And so I, you know, the balancing authorities and exactly what you guys are preaching and talking about. You know, you have another great resource out there, the Meredith Angwin of the world. And they’ve you guys seen the, you know, juice the series.com by Robert Bryce. Yep. He’s pretty cool when he got that bad dog thrown out there, didn’t he?
Isaac Orr [00:20:40] Yeah, absolutely. Robert’s a bad man.
Stuart Turley [00:20:44] I don’t I love that bad man. You guys.
Isaac Orr [00:20:46] Me to. I mean, bad man in the most, flattering way possible.
Stuart Turley [00:20:51] Considering you got a way. Cool podcast called the Energy bad boys. I it my first thought was, bad boys to, you guys, you know, I’ve got I know you’ve probably seen that right at boys, too, with, Marty, I think it’s Martin, and. No, it’s Schmidt. Yeah. Thank you. Martin.
Isaac Orr [00:21:14] Lawrence. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stuart Turley [00:21:17] All right. Now, when you guys were dating, did the did your father, the father of the girl that you guys were ever dating show up like Will Smith’s uncle when he pretended to, you know, shoot the kid and, get out of the way, you know? No.
Mitch Rolling [00:21:32] I promised myself I would be that father when I was.
Isaac Orr [00:21:37] You know.
Stuart Turley [00:21:40] I think that was one of the Will Smith’s greatest movies as far as I was concerned. I mean, you know, I don’t care if he’s socially adept anymore. I don’t watch any any Hollywood. What’s next for your stories? What do you see coming around the corner for you guys right now?
Isaac Orr [00:21:59] Yeah. Well, this week we’re working on another piece that is our solution to utility green plating. We’ve been working on this legislation called the only pay for what you get act for a few years has been our pet idea. And ultimately, we chase. Yeah. So, we we want ratepayers to be protected from paying for the full cost of an asset, regardless of whether that asset shows up when you need the power most. So.
Stuart Turley [00:22:30] How can I help my.
Isaac Orr [00:22:32] Well.
Isaac Orr [00:22:33] I mean, we’re talking about it right now, and owners are getting. Well, I guess the piece will be out by the time the podcast is released. So. So, yeah. Check out, How to stop utility green plating. The only pay for what you get. Act on the energy badboy Substack. It will be published. Probably, March 16th is is probably the day you can look for on that. But.
Stuart Turley [00:22:58] Mr. Producer, I got to be an arrogant. Bonehead. Let’s get this out before. Just kidding.
Isaac Orr [00:23:05] Yeah, yeah.
Stuart Turley [00:23:06] Oh, this is fantastic.
Isaac Orr [00:23:08] Yeah. So, you know, we have Xcel Energy in Minnesota, and we have friends in Colorado that also deal with Excel, and they are the worst when it comes to green plating their grids. They run TV commercials talking about how electricity will be affordable moving forward, low cost, but they always declined to define what that means. So they use these ambiguous weasel words and they basically lie to people, and they have these stupid commercials that drive me crazy. And every time I see one, I’m like, I’m going to get them. So, Mitch and I were thinking, what legislation could we propose that would anger Excel the most? So we came up with only pay for what you get. So, grid planners, regardless of whether that is a utility commission or a regional transmission organization. Right. Our teams, have, they basically give different, capacity, value or reliability values to assets based on their performance during times of peak electricity demand. Right. So this is called, capacity accreditation or capacity value. You can use all of these terms basically interchangeably. So thermal resources coal, natural gas and nuclear get high values is generally anywhere between 85 and 95% capacity value. Nuclear is at the high end. Gas is usually at the lower end because there’s been more outages, during, you know, like Winter Storm Elliot or Yuri. But wind and solar are always get pretty low values. So, I’ve just been looking at this for this piece right now, and you have, a lot of times solar will get a fairly high capacity value in the summertime because the time, the hours when solar is producing a lot coincide with the hours of the highest electricity demand in the summertime. But in the wintertime, it gets like a 6% capacity value, because the days are short. Here in Minnesota, the panels are frequently covered in snow and even in the South. Right. So let’s look at, North Carolina, which, you know, maybe that’s the Mid-Atlantic, but we’re from Wisconsin and Minnesota, so anything below Mason-Dixon is the South to us. And, so, in in North Carolina during Winter Storm Elliott, electricity demand peaked at night when it was cold and solar was producing zero megawatts. Right. So. Right. As if we are forced to electrify home heating or or transportation, we are going to switch from summer peaking systems to winter peaking systems. So, we need to think about that moving forward. So under our legislation, you know, we would probably average it out. So if a utility company wants to build a solar panel, that’s okay. But you can only recover, let’s say 22% or 25% of that cost from ratepayers and the remaining 75% of that, capacity value, or that asset would have to be paid by some other means, probably shareholders. Right. So, right. This is our way of introducing some market signals into a utility planning process that basically doesn’t have any. Right. So same for wind. Wind in miso in the summertime gets an 18% capacity accreditation. So you get to recover 18% of your costs from ratepayers. And if you want to build it and put stupid TV commercials on the television, you can, but your shareholders are going to be on the hook for this, this asset.
Stuart Turley [00:26:51] I love everything that you just said. Here’s here’s where we’re we’re we’re in for a really big bang. Do you have a sponsor politically that likes your idea yet?
Isaac Orr [00:27:02] Well, that’s, you eat an elephant one step at a time to stew.
Isaac Orr [00:27:07] So.
Isaac Orr [00:27:09] You know, I think that we can probably find some.
Stuart Turley [00:27:13] Okay, let’s let’s do this one step at a time. Let’s get it published. Let’s get it out there. I want to help get a sponsor. And let’s talk this bad dog up. Yeah. You know, we seem to be using bad boys. Bad. Bad. Everything bad. Robert’s a bad dude. Let’s get us a bad, sponsor.
Isaac Orr [00:27:34] That’s right.
Stuart Turley [00:27:35] For this and and really try to carry this forward because I quite honestly don’t believe this is so cool. And I don’t believe that the current, Department of Energy folks would actually let the lobbyists, even get a hold of this. I don’t think this would get past the lobbyists, to be honest with me.
Isaac Orr [00:27:58] Oh, no. Absolutely not. So, and the thing is, we want this to get passed.
Stuart Turley [00:28:05] We got to.
Isaac Orr [00:28:05] Drive. We do absolutely, 100%. So we think that this is most applicable at a state level for legislation. So, any state lawmakers who are listening and you say this is a great idea, we have draft legislation that we can, you know, send to you if you want to introduce it, you know, talk to your call. It’s huge. So we already have that. So, it’s generally the problem here is that the utility companies in many states are among the top lobbyists in the entire, ecosystem there. Like in Minnesota, it’s frequently Xcel Energy, Minnesota Chamber of Commerce, and then, you know, a few others. Right. So you have one company that lobbies more than the entity that’s responsible for lobbying for all of the businesses in the state. So, they have extreme political power. And in blue states, the utilities. Basically our buddy buddy with the lawmakers there because like, oh no, don’t don’t force us to spend a whole bunch of money and increase our corporate profits. That would be terrible, right? So, they they are basically they say they’re neutral on a lot of these mandates for, more wind and solar. But, you know, on the back end, they’re counting their money. And then they say things in committee like, we’re neutral, but we are excited about this opportunity to decarbonize our grid. And, you know, so they go ahead.
Stuart Turley [00:29:32] I I’m sorry. I get excited and. Yeah. Do you see that, Ercot may have a little bit of a different opinion on this.
Isaac Orr [00:29:42] So, Ercot, we haven’t looked at that. So I know the Public Utilities of Texas or Commission of Texas is getting involved in this issue. Our friend Brant Bennett down at Texas Public Policy Foundation keeps a close eye on this stuff, than we do. But we’re always happy to help Brant out if he ever needs it. And he’s been incredibly generous with his time. Watts with us, too. Whenever we write about Texas, maybe we.
Stuart Turley [00:30:04] Do a little seminar with him in a webinar, live webinar, get this thing rolling and try to help him out. What do you think?
Isaac Orr [00:30:11] Yeah. So in Texas, it’s going to be tough because, in Ercot, there is basically an unlimited ability for new entrants to come into the market and they don’t need any permission. So in the vertically integrated states, if a utility company wants to build something new, they need to go get permission from the regulator. And there is no barrier to entry in Ercot in order to do that. If you wanted to talk about the Panhandle, where Xcel Energy also operates and may or may not have been responsible for a large smokehouse fire. We’ll see. They deny any negligence there?
Stuart Turley [00:30:49] It’s Pharisee theories that we won’t go into on this one, but.
Isaac Orr [00:30:53] Yeah. Yeah, and we don’t we don’t need to.
Stuart Turley [00:30:57] Holy smokes.
Isaac Orr [00:30:59] Yeah. So, yeah, like, we think that this is best at a state level, and, we think that we, I think it’ll it’ll go a long way towards encouraging people to build things that are reliable, durable assets. And, that’s that’s what we need. We need as much reliable, affordable and long lasting power plants on the grid as possible. That’s why I mentioned, I say, look, these coal plants that we’re shutting down have decades of useful life on them, and we need more power. I mean, if we’re going to be reshoring, manufacturing, if we’re going to have data centers and all that stuff, you can’t close these down and keep the lights on.
Stuart Turley [00:31:38] You know, and and we sit back and, Monday on the energy realities, the team from, Arena Islam, Tammy Naismith and David Blackman and I are going to be talking about the resurgence of natural gas around the world, just the sheer number of natural gas in the EIA coming back and saying, the only reason that we dropped our, gas outputs is the retiring of the coal and the increased, of the natural gas plants, but yet we can’t get a damn pipeline, permitted within eight hours of the, you know, the Marcellus up there. And they’re importing Elon, you know, LNG from Russia and, you know, and a few other nefarious places in the Boston. You can’t buy this kind of entertainment as an energy writer right now.
Isaac Orr [00:32:29] Yeah. And Boston deserves it. I mean.
Stuart Turley [00:32:37] I knew I liked you guys. Yeah. Well, van tastic, I’ll tell you, you know, we’ve got so much to talk about again, and I can’t wait to have a long, a longer relationship with you guys and trying to help share your word out there and get your story out there, because you guys are knocking it out of the park. So, you know, Mitchell, what’s coming around the corner for you personally?
Mitch Rolling [00:33:06] Personally. Well, I’m really excited about the Substack and I just really like growing that. I like digging into everything, you know, that’s really been on my mind first and foremost, besides my my job at the center. So I, you know, that’s coming around. We have another great piece coming around about, the intermittency levelized cost of intermittency. So that’s going to be a fun one to.
Stuart Turley [00:33:29] You of.
Mitch Rolling [00:33:30] That one. So just keep an eye out for it. But we have some fun stuff coming up.
Stuart Turley [00:33:35] Cool. How about you, Isaac? What’s coming around the corner for you personally?
Isaac Orr [00:33:38] Yeah. Well, I’m going to go professional first and then personal. So, we’re hoping we’re helping the State of North Dakota model the impact of different EPA regulations on reliability and affordability. And, you know, that is going to be so we’re it’s the North Dakota Transmission Authority has been a great partner for us. Mitch and I joke where the unofficial energy modelers of the state at this point. Right. And they’re going to use the analysis that we’re doing, and they’re probably going to be using it to sue for a stay on the mercury and air toxic standards. And we’re talking about, potentially doing this for the new CO2 regulations as well. We did it on the original version of the Clean Power Plan 2.0. And I think we’re going to do it for this next one. So that’s going to be great. I mean, I think that that is a it’s a really exciting opportunity for us, at American Experiment to be involved in this, high stakes litigation. And yeah, we’re that we’re the expert witnesses. So that’s, that’s really cool. Yeah. And then personally, it’s, you know, summertime in Minnesota, it’s the best time to be here.
Stuart Turley [00:34:43] Do you do any, fishing for a walleye up there?
Isaac Orr [00:34:47] No, I grew up on a farm, so I’m more of a farmer than a fisher. So.
Stuart Turley [00:34:52] Have, you know, it’s kind of like every time I go by a cow. Cow track on them, I smell money. And. Yeah. So once you’re on a farm, you you have a whole different smell.
Isaac Orr [00:35:04] I smell work, but you can smell money if you want to.
Isaac Orr [00:35:07] You know?
Stuart Turley [00:35:11] So with that, how do people find you guys?
Isaac Orr [00:35:14] Yeah. You can check us out at American experiment.org and, I’m on I’m on Twitter. I refuse to call it x.
Isaac Orr [00:35:22] Like.
Isaac Orr [00:35:24] My. Okay, so here’s the thing. I grew up on the same, same house my grandpa was born in in 1930, and I was a small dairy farm. Right. And like all of the different fields that we farm have names associated with them, like, hey, can you run a sandwich down to dad’s? He’s on Mortensen’s right. And, Mortensen’s have not owned that field in my lifetime, but we still call it Mortensen’s. Right. So if the field changes hands, we don’t change the name of the field. And that’s how I feel about Twitter. So you can you can find me at the fracking guy on Twitter. And Mitch, you’re on you’re on Twitter as well. What’s your handle?
Mitch Rolling [00:36:02] Yep, I’m at Mitch rolling, but I’m also active on LinkedIn, Mitchum type thing.
Isaac Orr [00:36:07] So yeah. And of course energy bad Boys on Substack.
Stuart Turley [00:36:11] And, I’ll tell you, we will have all of those in the show notes. And, I can’t wait to visit with you guys again and, look forward to it. So thank you so much for making the time today.
Isaac Orr [00:36:23] Yeah, this is super fun. Have us on any time.
Stuart Turley [00:36:26] I hope this was the worst podcast you were ever on. All right. Thanks, guys.
The post ENB #206: Decoding Energy Dynamics: The Intersection of Policy, Monopoly, and Innovation in the U.S. Energy Sector appeared first on Energy News Beat.
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