When the transcript becomes available, we will include it here. -Thank you!

David Blackmon [00:00:09] Hey, welcome to the energy question with David Blackmon. I’m your host, David Blackmon. And my guest today is repeat guest return with Doug Robinson, the CEO of Natura Resources and, one of the movers and shakers behind a, molten salt nuclear reactor project that’s, housed at Abilene Christian University. Doug, how are you today?

Douglass Robinson [00:00:35] I’m fine. David. Thanks.

David Blackmon [00:00:38] Man. It’s great to see you, and I’m happy to catch up. It’s been too long since we talked, actually. Before we go into it, though, for for folks who hadn’t seen our first interview. Just talk a little bit. You know, for those who don’t know, Doug had a long career in the oil and gas business here in Texas, and, is now, really a key figure in pushing, what’s hopefully going to become a revolution in nuclear energy, with modular reactors here in Texas. And, just give everyone kind of a brief description of your background and how you came to be involved in this.

Douglass Robinson [00:01:14] Okay. I’ll make it real quick because we did that interview today. So I’m 40 years in the only gas industry. Retired. Thought I was retiring in 2017. My works be in the Permian Basin. West Texas. In 2004, Governor Perry appointed me to the Texas Energy Planning Council. And I chair, along with, State Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson, the energy Energy Supply Committee, one of our findings in oh four. And I will get into how we how even start talking about it. But was that if you’re going to replace hydrocarbons for power electricity, particularly baseload, that nuclear was the technology that could do that. Fast forward, we revolutionized through our fracking technology. You know, the, the, the Permian and that spread to other shale plays in the country. But in 2017, we now have a climate agenda where we’re pulling coal off market as far as power supply. We’re starting to pull natural gas off the market. Which is which is a little bit insane at this point, but it’s happening in different places. And the questions that we’re going to get our power. And so I started supporting a research project at Abilene Christian University. We’re supporters of that university. And and really, because they were doing some research on molten salt reactors that could meet some of the world’s basic needs for affordable energy that lift people out of poverty, the ability to provide safe drinking water through desalinization. And because we were a liquid fueled reactor, we can harvest medical isotopes that are needed for cancer screening and cancer treatment. And I thought, well, this, this this is a remarkable technology. These are all good things. And so I put some funding in it as a donation. That led to the Department of Energy coming down, touring the labs, bringing us to DC in 2019, basically saying, you need to build this reactor. And so I came out of retirement, stood up in a tour of resources here that lasted about seven months. Then we chose a unique route that no one had done before in bringing, new nuclear technology to the marketplace via research through universities. A research reactor that had never been done has never been done before. And, and so, natura has sponsored research agreements with Abilene Christian, University of Texas, Texas A&M and Georgia Institute of Technology. And that is our that is our research arm. So we have 150 researchers scattered among the four universities that are in in the process of bringing online, one of the country’s, if not the country’s first advanced reactors. And it’s been a very good strategy. Again, one that’s never been used before. But it’s had some real advantages. And we’re seeing the fruit of that work.

David Blackmon [00:04:18] Yeah. That, that affiliation with four major universities, research institutions has probably had an impact of speed in helping speed the project along. Right?

Douglass Robinson [00:04:29] Yeah. It has, you know, you know, a government oil and gas perspective. So we use I use phrases like turning to the right, which means we’re drilling, which means we’re actually producing that kind of thing. You know, we we, we do things in parallel, because we want to move as fast as possible. So what? Working through the universities and with under the Department of Energy’s university research director program has allowed us to do is engage with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. That’s the gatekeeper that’s in this country. And I’d say in many parts of the world, they still look to the NRC. That’s the gold standard. You have to go through the NRC to deploy reactors to get a license. And so. Excuse me that but usually utilizing a research reactor as that first of a kind of licensing prototype, if you will. We’ve engaged in a pathway at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission that is more, a more beneficial pathway, an easier pathway to get to actual licensure, which you have. That’s the first hurdle you have to clear. The other is because we’re a research reactor that’s being deployed, and it’s on the campus of Abilene Christian. We have support from Department of Energy in terms of fuel, and we have support from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in terms of licensing. So the the result of that has been we launched this project really the middle of 2020. And in two years, we had become one of only two projects that had actually filed a construction permit and been docketed by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the other being Kairos Power. And so the kind of proof is in the pudding. We use the word perform a lot around here. Look at what we’re doing. Don’t look at just what it’s being said. And so that construction permit and we expect to have that permit approved this year. Yeah. Which means they will they were we will file our operating permit application for operating permit, which once we get the construction permit, we can build the reactor. When we get the operating permit, we can fuel the reactor and turn it on. And so that’s the pathway we’re closing in. And the success is that we have moved very, very rapidly, both and a lot of efficiency in terms of time and in capital.

David Blackmon [00:07:04] So are still on track to to be operational next year, sometime in 2025.

Douglass Robinson [00:07:11] 2026.

David Blackmon [00:07:12] 2026,

Douglass Robinson [00:07:13] I think it’s legitimate. At this point up, 2025 is possible, I think more reasonable, slight first part of 2026, the reactor will go critical.

David Blackmon [00:07:25] That’s still that’s incredibly fast. You know, six years, basically.

Douglass Robinson [00:07:29] It’s best in the nuclear world in the oil and gas, agonizingly slow. I’m not so. And and and that’s one of the things that’s going to have to change over time. Yeah. And and small modular reactors that gives you the ability to mass produce a single design. You don’t have to license every single copy coming off the assembly line. And how’s the NRC and the and perhaps states have a role in speeding up that licensing process. But then there’s all there’s all kinds of supply chain issues, fuel issues. I mean, it’s a we’re trying to build a new industry and everything that goes with that. And so it’s it’s, it’s going to be really fascinating to watch how that plays out over the next few years, and not just as a kind of an academic exercise, but as we have to have this power, you know, and how fast are we going to get there? So it’ll be it’s going to be a fascinating time, very dynamic around you.

David Blackmon [00:08:26] Yeah. And, before we started taping, you were talking about interest. Now from from commissioners on the NRC. Actually, coming out the tour of the site, you’ve had two of them out already, and a third coming out next month.

Douglass Robinson [00:08:39] That’s right. Yeah. We, I didn’t mention the other thing that we have done is we have opened the country’s first advanced nuclear reactor facility. And I’d say maybe outside of Idaho National Lab that has some facilities that are being retrofitted or for that purpose. But this is the first outside of a national lab, and that’s a $25 million facility that we opened in September of last year.

David Blackmon [00:09:06] ICU.

Douglass Robinson [00:09:07] Yeah, I see it’s an ICU facility and it’s a it’s you got to see it to believe it. And so if you go to our website, there’s, you know, you can see pictures there, Abilene Christian website you can find. And it’s not it’s not a graphic. It’s not a rendering. It’s a building, you know. Right. And you can as a we’re put we’re putting out a video and explaining why we’re doing what we’re doing. And one of the points we make in that is that we don’t have to show you a drawing of a building. We don’t have to show you a diagram of a building. We can walk you through our building. And so that’s what that’s what is attracting the NRC commissioners to come see this facility.

David Blackmon [00:09:44] I think I can share my copy that that, mockup you have on your website. I think I can share it with everyone here if.

Douglass Robinson [00:09:55] It’d be more than a mockup. And from that mockup of the reactor of the facility, the.

David Blackmon [00:09:59] Illustration that’s on your website, I think.

Douglass Robinson [00:10:02] Yeah, that’s that’s a that’s a cutaway that that’s a useful illustration. Yeah. David. Because I mean, the building, you know, you might be able to pull up a building, but what’s useful about that cutaway is you see the the reactor bay below ground, right? Yeah. So you won’t see if you walk by the building. It’s underground. Yeah. But that that shows where the reactor is going to be sitting there on your left side. Once we deploy it. So that’s a yeah, that’s a good rendering because it kind of gives a, a subterranean view of what’s actually going on in that reactor bay and the rest of the building, our education space, research space. We even have some, some space for public viewing. Because this is a multi-purpose building that’s serving more than just a reactor facility. It’s also a research and education facility.

David Blackmon [00:10:53] So, yeah, you know, on our first interview, you said people would be able to come in there and actually view the reactor. While it’s online, right?

Douglass Robinson [00:11:02] Well. Or not? Not. Not so much. They can see the room where the reactor is. If you. If you look at that cutaway. Right. What you’re going to see on top of that reactor bay are some cement blocks. So when we, when we put the facility in there, when I’m in the reactor, when we lower the vessel in there, then cement is put on top of that. That’s part of your containment. Okay. So you will not be able to actually see the reactor here. I don’t know if there’s going to be a, a camera inside that reactor that will show you the reactor. I. You’ll be able to see the bay, but you’re not going to be able to walk up to it and actually look at the reactor once it gets filled.

David Blackmon [00:11:47] So. So that leads to the question, you know, one of the the holdups with nuclear and the expansion of nuclear, in our society has been this irrational fear about it. Right. And I think that, you know, the industry really, as a whole, still hasn’t really gotten past Three Mile Island, which was 45 years ago in terms of, getting over the fear factor. Have you had a lot of pushback, from students at ASU when they find out that there’s going to be a nuclear reactor on campus? Is there like some kind of an ongoing education effort you’re having to go through to kind of allay these kinds of fears that come up?

Douglass Robinson [00:12:32] Yeah. You’re you’re not going to believe this answer. We have an ICU, has had a very proactive town hall. Come see it. Here’s what we’re doing. Approach. For the for the university, for the students, for the community of Abilene. We have had nothing but overwhelming support and excitement. And I’ll say, David, I say this as an oil and gas guy for 40 years. You mentioned the industry has not gotten over Three Mile Island or Fukushima or even recall to go way back to Chernobyl if we wanted to. Yeah, I think we got to get over that. I. The, the the public. And we have to be safe. And the safety record of the of the nuclear industry in the US is, is the safest of any energy source, bar none. There has been, I would say, in the last ten years, a dramatic shift in public attitude toward nuclear power. And I don’t know if it’s a generational thing. I don’t know if it’s, just familiarity, but, and it may be the, awareness that if you if you have a climate agenda, if you’re caught, you’re really afraid, it’s carbon. Right? If you think carbon is going to destroy the planet. And and you’re not too excited about the possibility of sitting in the dark and freezing to death. Then nickel becomes an attractive option. And and that is, that is playing out not just in the marketplace and in the legislation. So we see 20 plus states and the federal government all it passing pro nuclear legislation. So that’s an indicator. And not just here in the EU. And you know, in Europe I mean you’re seeing it around the world pro-nuclear. But you’re seeing on on the climate parties, I’ll say that the, the different organizations and so forth that are concerned about climate are becoming pro-nuclear, because I see pro-nuclear as a necessary part of the answer to their climate concern. And it goes back to what we said in 2004 on that Energy Planning council, if you’re going to replace hydrocarbons in France. We were talking about coal and natural gas. For the generation of power. Where are you going to get that? Now we’re doing wind and solar as much as we possibly can. But you have to have dispatchable power. You have to have power on demand. And nuclear can do that. Does do that. And so you’re you’re seeing this. It goes back to the, you know, the old saying, I think from the fourth century of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. If you view climate that the carbon hydrocarbons being the enemy of the planet, what is it that can. Impact. What can help take the place of what hydrocarbons is doing? Well that’s not. Yeah. That’s. Yeah. Make sure you don’t hear me saying that. We don’t need carbon. We need carbon, we need coal, we need clean coal, and we need natural gas for a very, very long time. I’m not saying that what we’re doing is going to replace only gas. In fact, I think what we’re doing, our technology is going to make oil and gas better and cleaner and more affordable. So we’re going to make hydrocarbons, better than what they are now. But we we need an all of the above. We need wind and solar. We need renewables. We need nuclear. We need hydrocarbons. We need clean hydrocarbon. But that is what is causing a shift in the attitude. So that’s my point. I’m not necessarily taking that attitude that, okay, nuke is going to replace oil and gas in the next ten years. We’re not we can’t move that fast even if we wanted to. But there are those who believe that or that see it nuclear as part of the answer to a concern about climate.

David Blackmon [00:16:42] No. And you know, you’re going to have to have a dramatic expansion of nuclear just to help keep up with the rise in demand, with AI and and EV recharging demands on the grid, we’re going to have to double or even triple generation capacity on our grid in the next 15 years. You’re not going to do that with windmills and solar panels.

Douglass Robinson [00:17:02] Well, Google and Google and Microsoft and Nucor just made a big announcement last week here in Texas during ceraweek. And they’re they have what’s called a request for information, where a major initiative primarily with data centers. Hey, we need this much power, an amazing amount of power needed to, to conduct those operations, to conduct that, that those computations, if you will, and where they’re going to get that power. Right. And they’ll look into nuclear now, the amount of power that they’re needing and the time frame that they’re needing and the amount of nuclear that’s kind of coming online. And we’re part of that coming online, where the, the the demand, the supply is not meeting the demand, the projected demand and the projected supply. We’re not we’re not on a track to to be able to do that as things currently exist. And that’s one of the as I said earlier, that’s going to be the dynamic, it’s really to me, it’s a function of two kind of two things. It’s a function of how fast can you regulatory move because you have to license. You can’t just build a reactor and put it out there. You have to go through the NRC. How fast can the NRC respond? And not just the NRC, but the federal government, because I think the federal government is going to have to change or help give the NRC the tools to be able to to meet that new demand. And the other is, quite frankly, just simply money capital because it if you if you have enough money, you can move at a very fast rate. If you don’t have enough money, you move much slower. I mean, we saw that we see that in the oil gas industry all the time. And if you have a lot of capital available to you, then the ability to move quickly and aggressively is there. If you don’t, well then you can’t. And so that watching how the capital market is going to respond to new nuclear, and I don’t think they have yet, I think they’re looking at it and they’re thinking about it. But as far as the way we’ve seen capital pour into the oil and gas industry beginning in 2004, 2005 during the fracking revolution, we haven’t seen that yet. And and it’ll be interesting to see where that happens and when who’s around when it happens.

David Blackmon [00:19:25] Do you think the ESG, paradigm within some of these big financial houses, investment houses is having a negative impact on, nuclear growth?

Douglass Robinson [00:19:36] Well, nuclear actually falls into ESG.

David Blackmon [00:19:39] Well, it sure, but yeah,.

Douglass Robinson [00:19:40] But but but but actually I think the I think the pull back on ESG has has impacted this. You know you had such a strong ESG incentive. And you know I didn’t follow it closely. I think I first here started hearing about like in 2018, 2019. Yeah. Yeah. And you had a really strong push in ESG in and then you had some actual results as the investors looked as a G. We’re not really performing on these investments we’re making. And so you had a you had a kind of whiplash. The other thing you had at that same time, you had a a lot of money going to fusion. And fusion is is not to get confused with what we’re doing with vision. But but the some of the physicist I talked to said fusion is 50 years away and will always be 50 years away. But. The science of fusion. I’ll let them explain that on a different podcast with you, David. But but fusion. The a lot of money went into fusion a few years ago with not much to show for it. And so that’s been a headwind. You can say Covid a little bit. I kind of put that off to the side. And then we’ve had some high profile projects that have been in the public arena that haven’t. I’m not going to name them, but but have had are continuing to. Struggle to meet projections and so forth. And, and all of that is sort of to make the capital market very leery. At the time of nuclear. But it’s. And this is, this is what’s gonna be so interesting watching this play. But at the same time. We’re starting to see institutional capital pull out of the renewable market. The way they pulled out of the oil and gas market 4 or 5 years ago. You know, like France, for example, issued some, directives, probably 2 or 3 weeks ago that was really pointed toward nuclear. And saying we need to focus on nuclear. Well, that calls a renewable industry to go into an uproar. What what what what do you what are you pulling out of nuclear? We saw that in Texas, quite frankly, with Senate Bill 2627. And the was that called the Texas Energy Fund? I think that resulted in the $5 billion that the legislature put out in the marketplace for dispatchable power. Now, dispatchable power, by definition, does not include wind and solar, because when it solar is not dispatchable, it primarily includes natural gas, I think. But it nuclear advanced nuclear falls in that category. We can’t move within the time frame. So so Texas is saying. We’re interested in dispatchable power. We need reliability along with what the renewables bring. So there’s that market impetus going. You see the governor’s initiative August last year that we just talked about the advanced nuclear work group. How do we bring nuclear to Texas? So you’re starting to see forward leading indicators that nuclear is going to be. And this announcement by Google and Microsoft and nuclear. You know, you’re starting to see these leading indicators say we’re going to be focusing on nuclear. The capital markets are paying attention. Those guys are usually usually the smartest guys in the room. They’re paying attention. And and

David Blackmon [00:23:21] they certainly think they’re the smartest guys.

Douglass Robinson [00:23:23] Well They? They usually are. As far as making money. I’ll you know, I’m working with a lot of physicists and those guys in that arena, but in the in the financial arena, they, they hire the best and the brightest. Yeah. Someone’s going to move, and we’re seeing it already. I’ll give you an example. Blackrock. But that 50 million was a 50 million a I’m going to put a substantial investment into carbon capture. Clean air capture that’s in clean air capture is an industry that probably has to have no killer. The amount of power they’re going to use to capture, capture carbon. So you see that that’s early investment directly in nuclear, but in an industry that would utilize, most probably utilize nuclear. And you have, you have some private equity group that, Pelican Energy Partners is one that we’ve watched and visited with. They’ve got a they’ve got a good team put together now. They’re, they’re more focused on the supply chain of this supply side of how do you build a supply chain for nuclear. So that’s a leading indicator. But I’ve seen it I’ve seen it in my only gas career that went when one investment firm or private equity firm, when they jump in the fear of missing out takes over and you get this stampede. And at some point, this and maybe it’s already become a stampede, towards nuclear. We’ll see, how that plays out. And I can’t predict it’s going to happen in the next 12 months, like 18 months. I think it’s going to happen sooner rather than later. But, you know, we don’t know what the trigger point will be, but it’s going to happen at some point. It has to happen.

David Blackmon [00:25:13] Somebody asked me last week, well, what what would happen with nuclear if Trump wins this election in November? Would he would it help speed it up or would it slow it down? And quite honestly, didn’t really have, hadn’t given it a lot of thought and didn’t really have an answer for that question. We know Trump would be drill, baby, drill on oil and gas, but I haven’t seen any policy, announcements out of that campaign related to nuclear have, you.

Douglass Robinson [00:25:42] Know, really, you go you have to go back several administrations to go back to the Obama administration that that puts, emphasis on nuclear. The most, most, probably the most notable was advanced reactor demonstration program, RTP. Right? Yeah. That was put in place by the Obama administration. Those grants were issued in 2020 when we were just launching our project, and that was billions of dollars that went out of the D.o.e. Department of Energy into to, to advance nuclear. So and then the Trump administration passed two significant pieces of legislation, Advanced Nuclear Modularization Act and and another piece and was passed through Congress. So you had pro nuclear activity during that administration and during the Biden administration. You have other pro-nuclear, you know, and, oh, there was a there was a House Bill 1410, I think, that came out of Ohio, or Representative Gonzalez, may maybe didn’t get the number right, but that got incorporated into the Chips plus act, I believe, calling for for research reactors to be established. So I feel like it’s it’s kind of not Partizan. It’s across the aisle. And so it’s not a topic I feel like it’s not a topic of debate. Yeah. Like, say drill, baby, drill is where you have, say the Trump administration may be maybe more friendly to oil and gas, or the Biden administration might not be as friendly to or. I don’t think nuclear is an issue. I think everybody kind of recognizes that we need to make it happen. It’s a good thing. It’s going to be a necessary, a big part of our energy future. How do we get there? In the meanwhile, we have to take care of business today while nuclear proves itself, which is on us, right? That’s on this industry, this wannabe industry to to prove itself. So I feel like nuclear is kind of sitting off to the side, advanced nuclear setting off to the side, doing its work hopefully, and getting to the point of credibility where of the investment community, where the Googles and the Microsofts of the world, you know, where they were. The energy industry of a world can use nuclear, whether refining or on upside on, in, you know, we can do some work in the oil field as far as providing power to the oil field and, cleaning up produced water that you’re, you know, you’re familiar with what produced water in conjunction with our oil and gas operations. With diesel operations. All of all of these are working, bringing these things to maturity. So we’re at the point that policymakers, whether to state level, the federal level, can say, okay, now I can start plugging nuclear into my calculations of. Future, future energy supply for us today. I think you have to be honest about, you know, if we’re saying our first nuclear deployments are not going to start till 2030, which is about as early as you hear in this country. Well, you know. If I’m working at Ercot or I’m at the Public Utility Commission or Department of Energy, I’ve got to take care of the years between now and 2030. 2030 is great, but we’ve got six years. We need to we need to come up with other solutions. So that’s I think that’s where nuclear is right now is we’re doing our work. We’re getting to a point to where we are legitimate in the eyes of the investment community and advising policymakers, and then in the eyes of customers that would consume the power generated by nuclear technology. But until then, I think we’re going to see it kind of sitting where it is, until we get to that point.

David Blackmon [00:29:28] Yeah, we’re we’re going to definitely have to slow down, this rush to retire coal and natural gas in the next over the next half decade. It’s just it’s getting out of hand in some some of the regional grids, PJM market in particular. There’s been recent talk about how much of theirs is going to be retired by 2030, and they don’t have any prospect of replacing most of it. So it’s it’s got to something’s going to have to give in the near term. But yeah, in the longer term we’re going if we get significant deployment of new nuclear, it’s going to be a huge, huge deal to for reliability and and meeting demand on the grid.

Douglass Robinson [00:30:12] Yeah. We have a perfect storm coming, in that you have three things happening. One is you’re losing supply and we’re losing coal, either for environmental reasons or because of aging facilities or because you’re just, you know, when you look at look at the facility at back about just, the a very large coal power generation facility, but that seam, a coal that that was built on is gone. So now they’re transporting coal in from Wyoming. So, so it’s a it’s a non renewable resource in that sense. And also a particularly a natural gas. You have facilities that are beyond. Life expectancy. Right. And they weren’t built to last as long as they’re lasting. And so you have power coming off the grid. You have, an ever increasing demand for power. And and the Google, Microsoft, Nucor initiative is exactly indicative that if you look as much power is going to be needed to, to to generate AI and the data processing, demand that’s coming on, it’s phenomenal. I mean, and we as a society are using more power. The world is using more power. Power get you out of poverty. A little bit of electricity takes you out of poverty. It’s amazing how much a little bit of electricity can lift somebody out of it, out of abject poverty, into a much higher standard of living. So you’ve got those demand pressures happening, and it’s the two. The two are it when you’re demand’s going up and your supply is going down, that’s not a good thing.

David Blackmon [00:31:49] No, it’s a recipe for catastrophe.

Douglass Robinson [00:31:51] Yes. Exactly. Right. Yeah. It’s the it’s the literal valley of death.

David Blackmon [00:31:57] It it it is. It just, you know, so many people just don’t even want to think about it. It’s just amazing to me how many people just will not even address.

Douglass Robinson [00:32:06] Well, you know, I think probably part of it is and we experienced this in Texas in 2021 with Storm Uri. Yeah. We are so used to flipping that switch and the light comes on every single time. We don’t think about it anymore. Right? Or we turn the faucet and the water comes out every single time. So we just take it for granted. We go to the grocery store. The food is always there. So if it’s if it’s not a problem, why think about it. In in the ability to look a little bit down the road and say, what happens if the lights don’t come on? And not just the lights, but the heat and the transportation? The whole grid. Energy grid. What happens if the water doesn’t come off right? What are you going to do then? What happens? Yeah. And so the, the that’s on industry, that’s on regulators, that’s on the legislators to look down the road. That’s their job to make sure those things don’t happen. So we can continue to take those things for granted, so to speak.

David Blackmon [00:33:06] Well Doug, thank you so much. We’re we’re up against time, but I this is great. And, really admire everything you’re working on. And, I’m glad we have a smart oil and gas guy like you leading this nuclear renaissance.

Douglass Robinson [00:33:20] I might be a moron, I’m not sure.

David Blackmon [00:33:24] anyway, let’s let’s be sure to catch up again here later in the year. And, you know how things are going.

Douglass Robinson [00:33:30] All right? And you’re always welcome to come to Abilene and do a podcast out of, Advanced Reactor.

David Blackmon [00:33:36] Thats A thought. Yeah, maybe we ought to do that. That’d be fun.

Douglass Robinson [00:33:40] Yeah, we could set that up.

David Blackmon [00:33:42] All right, all right. Good deal, man. Take care.

Douglass Robinson [00:33:44] Take care.

David Blackmon [00:33:45] That’s all for today, folks. Thanks to Erick Parel, our producer at the sandstone Group, for hosting the podcast. I’m David Blackmon, and appreciate you watching.

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