The Energy Question Episode 38 – Former Texas Congressman Martin Frost

In Episode 38 of The Energy Question, host David Blackmon interviews former Texas Democratic Congressman Martin Frost. Mr. Frost currently serves on the Board of Advisors for the Council for a Secure America, the focus of this discussion.

CSA was founded on the premise that American energy independence through the production of liquid fuels served as the underpinning for U.S. security. This energy independence, and the strategic alliance with Israel, strengthen America’s mutual security and global standing.

CSA Home Page: https://councilforsecureamerica.org/

Run of Show:

00:00 – Intro

01:40 – Martin Frost talks about the Council for a Secure America and how it works

08:03 – The importance of maintaining Energy Security

11:17 – Is the U.S. losing influence in the Middle East? Is that a dangerous thing for the Country?

13:20 – Challenges related to the relationship between United States and Saudi Arabia

15:11 – Does the Council have similar concerns about this growing relationship between Russia and India?

21:02 – When we see China moving into South America in such a big way. Is that something we should be concerned about?

22:45 – Do you see the BRICS alliance also helping to facilitate the growth of China’s influence globally?

24:57 – Is it possible for America, really any other country to have what we like to refer to as a true sense of national security without having energy security at the time?

28:37 – Outro

The Energy Question Episode 38 – Former Texas Congressman Martin Frost

David Blackmon [00:00:10] Hello, Welcome to the Energy question with David Blackmon. I’m your host, David Blackmon and my special guest today is someone I’ve admired for a long, long time, former Congressman Martin Frost, in whose district I lived for many years when I lived in Arlington, Texas and Congressman Frost is now a secretary and director for the Council for a Secure America. Congressman, how are you today?

Martin Frost [00:00:33] Doing fine. Doing fine. You know, we’ve talked about living in the district, these districts change all the time. So if you’re a congressman from the Dallas Fort Worth area, you have to be prepared to run anywhere in the Metroplex because you don’t know what the legislature or the courts are gonna do.

David Blackmon [00:00:47] To do it. It’s a big that’s a big area, man, I tell you. Oh, yeah.

Martin Frost [00:00:51] But you you don’t ignore anybody,.

David Blackmon [00:00:52] Right? you cant, I can’t. So you know, I wanted to focus today on the work you’re doing for the Council for a Secure America you been writing, you’ve written several op-eds recently and touching on the importance of energy security, the growing, I think, rivalry between the United States and China for energy resources and supply chains around the country, and particularly how it’s all impacting US hegemony in the Middle East. And it’s, you know, I write a lot about these things as well, and I just find myself agreeing with basically everything you’ve had to say on the table.

Martin Frost [00:01:31] And I’m sure there are a few places that we’re not in agreement, but that’s okay we won’t talk about that.

David Blackmon [00:01:35] Okay, Yeah, we’ll skip over those. Yeah, well, I you know, you have the council for Secure America. Just take a few minutes to talk about what that is, why it’s important and the work you’re doing there.

Martin Frost [00:01:47] Well, this is the second incarnation of this group we started this. I was part of the original group back in the in the 1980s, and then it went dormant for a while. And then about ten or 15 years ago, a lot of us revived. And first of all, this is a combination of people from the Southwest who are in the energy business and people from the Northeast and other parts of the country who were strong supporters of the state of Israel.

Martin Frost [00:02:14] And we have always felt that the United States needs to produce as much energy as it can, because particularly now, because energy is being used as a foreign policy weapon by the Russians to promote their particular policy right now in Ukraine and other places.

Martin Frost [00:02:31] And so it’s always been our interest that the US become as energy independent as possible. When we first started this, we were importing a lot of energy, a lot of oil and gas. And then as you’ve gone on through the years, we’ve become much more self-sufficient.

Martin Frost [00:02:47] We still import a little bit, you know, we import some from Canada and of course they’re our friend and our neighbor, so we’re not worried about that. But it is in our interest to produce as much. We have great energy supplies and there’s no reason why we can’t develop our energy for our own domestic consumption and have some of it available to promote democracy around the world so this has been an interesting run.

Martin Frost [00:03:12] And you and I were visiting a moment ago for we started my family on both sides. Doesn’t have any love for the Russians. My my wife’s family is originally from Ukraine her family’s been in the United States for quite a while and my mother’s family was from Lithuania. And so the Russians, of course, are up to no good right now in Ukraine. And the people in Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia and Poland are also keeping a wary eye on Russia, because if they were successful in Ukraine, who knows who they’d come after next.

Martin Frost [00:03:45] And so it’s in our interest to to have a foreign policy that promotes democracy, that works with our allies in Europe. And this is very important because the Russians have tried to put pressure on our allies by withdrawing natural gas supplies from some of Western Europe and hoping that the people would freeze and they would turn against their government and against their policy.

Martin Frost [00:04:07] But those those countries have rallied, and we’ve made it clear that we want to be helpful where we can in terms of, first of all, perhaps sending them some liquefied natural gas, also working with our ally in the Middle East, Israel, that is in the process of developing some natural gas fields in the Mediterranean and some of that gas hopefully will eventually, working with Egypt, eventually be available to our Western European allies.

Martin Frost [00:04:37] And in terms of China, it’s very interesting to me personally I was a fellow at the Kennedy School politics after I left Congress, and as a part of that, we could take credit noncredit courses, audit courses in Harvard, because that’s where the Kennedy School is located and we could take up to three of these. And I took a course on the history of China. I figure that everybody who’s involved in American policy needs to know something about China. And China is an extraordinary place.

Martin Frost [00:05:08] First of all, they take a long view they’re not worried necessarily about next week or next year. They’re worried about the next decade or the next century. So you have to really understand their mentality and they’re in this for the long haul and we’re in this for the long haul. It doesn’t make any sense for us to say, well, we can’t be involved in the rest of the world. And that was the attitude that some people in the United States took in the thirties on the time leading up to World War Two, and they wanted to just kind of look the other way and let Nazi Germany do what it wanted to.

Martin Frost [00:05:38] Fortunately, our government did not take that position, although there were people in the United States who advocated that. And we can’t afford to let Russia have its way in Europe, and we can’t afford to let China have its way throughout the Far East. So those are interesting times for us. But producing more energy from all sources let me be clear about this.

Martin Frost [00:06:01] We certainly advocate as much production of oil and gas as possible, but we also recognize that it’s worthwhile developing some alternative sources. The issue is that you can’t have those overnight. You can’t turn to alternative sources, wind, solar and other uses immediately. But we’re not opposed to the development over a period of time, as long as everyone recognizes in the United States that oil and gas are bridge fuels and bridge fuels for a long time before we would become largely dependent upon other sources.

Martin Frost [00:06:35] So we’ve been working for a number of years, as I said, to do everything we can to make sure our government is as friendly as possible and the public is as friendly as possible to the oil and gas industry, because that’s the basis. That’s kind of the undertone undercutting the beginning of an energy policy. You’ve got to have that, too, before you can do anything else.

Martin Frost [00:07:00] And so this is an interesting group we’ve been active over the years. We’re 501c3, which is a charitable group, which means that we can’t lobby, but we can educate and we can put on forums, we can write an op ed or we can talk about the role or the oil and gas industry for our country, for our national defense, and for our position in the world. And that’s really what we were doing.

David Blackmon [00:07:23] It at all points out. You know, you talk about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and and the impacts it’s had just globally, really on on energy flows and relationships. And doesn’t it all really point to another theme I know you focus on in your writing on this about energy security.

David Blackmon [00:07:41] European put itself in a position where it was so reliant on Russia for that cheap natural gas and it didn’t really have Germany in particular, but other countries as well didn’t really have any real level of energy security and that’s had major ramifications, really not just in Europe but in Pakistan, because it can’t get LNG anymore. Talk about the energy security element of what you’re.

Martin Frost [00:08:07] Well, it is clearly and as I said, it’s good for us, for our own country, and it’s good for our friends in the world. The United States, ever since World War Two has been recognized as a leader of the world. Now we’re being challenged by China economically, as well as some other ways. But we it is in our best interest to maintain this leadership position both in Europe and in Asia. And we’re capable of doing that. We don’t it’s not an either or proposition we can’t just say, well, we’ll do some things to help our European allies, but we’ll worry about Asia, or we can just switch to Asia and and disregard what’s going on in Europe. it’s because of some changes in our production.

Martin Frost [00:08:50] I mean, our one of the organizers, founders of our organizations, Harold Hamm, I think you’re familiar with him. Yes. And Harold, we used a combination of hydraulic fracturing and horizontal drilling to free up oil and gas in the shale areas where it previously was, not thought that that was economically economical, but he demonstrated that it was. And so we’ve increased our own production significantly in recent years.

Martin Frost [00:09:16] And there are some people who in the country who would say very peculiar position, quite frankly, I think leave it in the ground. I mean, I don’t understand that at all. There are some people who don’t what don’t want us to develop any more oil and gas. I mean, there are legitimate environmental concerns. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that we should ignore the environment, but the extreme position of leave it on the ground, don’t drill anyplace now, that’s nuts.

Martin Frost [00:09:39] And so we’ve we’ve tried to make it clear that it is in our interest, our own security interests and our own economic interests to make sure that we develop the resources that we have. And we’ve been very fortunate and very blessed that we do have very significant energy resources. And we are now in a position where we’re not completely and solely reliant on our own fuel developed in the United States, but largely reliant on what we have here and that we do have, particularly in the area of Natural gas. We have the opportunity to provide some help to our friends and also to export oil to around the world.

Martin Frost [00:10:20] You know, there was a period of time starting back in the Nixon administration where we banned the export of crude oil. You could export refined products, gasoline and others, but you couldn’t export crude oil. And some of us were involved in that effort. And Harold really played a significant role. And he did, yes. Making it clear that it’s in our interest now to be able to export crude oil to some so some of our friends will have an additional source that they would not otherwise have. But to do that, you have to keep producing here in the United States in a very significant way, and we’re for that. Well.

David Blackmon [00:10:58] One of the areas where China we talk about China is really challenging seems to be anyway, United States influence is in the Middle East. We just saw this in mid-March, this deal between Saudi Arabia and Iran to reestablish long dead diplomatic relations in that deal brokered by China. Is the U.S. losing influence in the Middle East? Is that a dangerous thing for the Country?

Martin Frost [00:11:23] Or it could be we’re not to the point where we’re losing it right now, but we have to be very much aware of what’s going on. You know, I’ve never been a particular fan of Saudi either. You know, we we like to think that we have had historically decent relationships with Saudi Arabia. But when we need them now, we’ve asked them to increase their production so that the price of gasoline at the pump won’t go up. But they refused and OPEC has refused to increase their production.

Martin Frost [00:11:53] So, you know, and I think their relationship with China may be a part of that, quite frankly. You know, this is a this is a complicated world that we’re in, but we can’t we have to understand that we have some friends, but some of our friends are lukewarm from time to time. And we need to make sure that we’re in a strong position to be a dominant force or a major force, both in the Middle East, Europe, and in China.

Martin Frost [00:12:20] We’re a world power and I don’t think that the people of the United States want to walk away from our leading position of being a world power. But part of that is using energy, not necessarily exactly the way the Russians do, but taking advantage of our domestic production so that we can promote our friends and promote democracy around the world.

Martin Frost [00:12:40] And it doesn’t surprise me that the Saudis, who have not gotten along with the Iranians for a long period of time, might decide, well, they’ll play nice with the Iranians. Well, thanks a lot, fellows. You know, we’ve tried to maintain a good relationship with the Saudis, and we can’t just walk away from that but I think we need to watch them very closely. And we have over the years and I think, you know, we’ve sold them a lot of weapons and a lot of.

David Blackmon [00:13:06] Weapons Test

Martin Frost [00:13:06] And they’re very small. They have a small population they’re a big country with a small population. And so they want to have the most sophisticated weapons available. We have provided that to them. But there may be a time where we’re not going to do that anymore.

David Blackmon [00:13:20] So what I’ve always wondered and another part of what your group is doing is advocating for a stronger relationship between the United States and Israel. And I’ve always wondered how the government of Israel views it when the United States agrees to supply arms to Saudi Arabia. Now, the tension is not as great between those countries as it has been in the past, But it just it always feels like to me, something that is Israel’s government may have not a great feeling about when we’re.

Martin Frost [00:13:52] Yeah, well, you know.

David Blackmon [00:13:53] In such sophisticated arms to Saudi Arabia and other countries.

Martin Frost [00:13:56] We’re going to see exactly what happens you know, the during the Trump administration, we started the Abraham Accords and in encouraging some of the Arab countries to basically make peace with Israel, they have diplomatic relations and have economic partnerships.

Martin Frost [00:14:11] And, you know, Israel has developed a lot of high technology and this is of interest to a number of those countries in the Middle East. And, you know, the the Saudis are trying to play a habit both ways. They want to they do it to the extent that they can work with Israel, particularly on technology. They want that. But they also are not necessarily willing to be very helpful in other ways close to Israel or the United States.

Martin Frost [00:14:38] And so we have to stand firm we have to make it pretty clear to the Saudis that we will continue to try and do business with you, but not if you are trying to undercut our foreign policy in Europe, dealing with the Russians.

David Blackmon [00:14:53] Another country that Russia back to Russia, has really developed much stronger ties with since the invasion of Ukraine is India, and that’s been motivated mainly by the need to sell oil to someone and India’s willingness to buy it. Does the council have, you know, similar concerns about this growing relationship between Russia and India similarly?

Martin Frost [00:15:20] It’s not necessarily something that we’ve gotten into at this point, but certainly that is something you have to pay attention to. And the India, since it became independent and it’s only been independent since the late 1940s, they were part of Britain prior to that. India has had its own historic problems with Pakistan.

Martin Frost [00:15:43] And so India has wanted to make sure that they are in a good shape if they ever have to go to war with Pakistan. And, you know, we’ve tried to be friendly with India. I’m not happy with the role that they’re playing right now. But, you know, you have to limit your targets here you limit your opportunity. And I’m sure that our government is having serious conversations with India right now.

Martin Frost [00:16:06] And, you know, the Russians have been able to maintain this war against Ukraine because they’ve had to continue to have a market where their oil market around the world and our European allies in Western Europe have tried to put a ceiling on what what they can what they’ll pay for for Russian energy and so that the Russians just can’t keep raising the prices.

Martin Frost [00:16:31] But Russia has been able to sell to China, has been able to sell to India, and they have used their energy supplies effectively. And that’s why we have to remain a strong energy producer. We can’t just see the feel to them because Russia’s not in great shape economically and their military is not as good as they thought it was going to be but they’re not going away. They’re not going anyplace.

Martin Frost [00:17:02] And they historically had great influence in there among their neighboring countries, particularly in Eastern Europe, right after World War Two. And we have to realize that those countries have become friends of ours after they threw off the Russian yoke originally after the Berlin Wall opened and Poland actually has been a very good friend of the United States and has played an instrumental role in our efforts in Ukraine.

Martin Frost [00:17:30] And so it’s in our interest to just tell the Russians there is a point beyond which you can’t go and you’d better you better stay away and stay out of those countries that once were part your satellite countries which now are independent and in many cases democratic. It doesn’t mean they’re all have a democracy exactly the way we do.

Martin Frost [00:17:53] But it’s really important that the Russians understand that the United States is in this for keeps, that we will stand firm and do what we can. We’re not sending troops to Ukraine, but we need to supply as much as we can. Much weaponry, modern weaponry, sophisticated weaponry as we can. And it’s a good message to send to the Russians and to the Chinese.

Martin Frost [00:18:18] The Chinese need to understand that we’re not going to walk away from Ukraine because if we did, they’d they’d go after Taiwan tomorrow. If they thought the United States was not a dependable ally. And we have a very constructive role to play in maintaining as much peace as you can around the world. And I would hate to see us withdraw, withdraw from the rest of the world, because we are a great country and we’re capable of great things. And as a great country, we have a role to play in providing leadership. And I hope it will continue to do that. But the Russians are tough, tough people nobody should should take them lightly. There and then, as you can see from the media coverage, they’re mean to folks once they get in a battle.

Martin Frost [00:19:07] Now they are disappointed I know that Putin and the people around him are disappointed that the Ukrainians have proved to be tough, too, and the Ukrainians have stood their ground. I think they thought they would just walk over Ukraine, the Ukraine, they would be there. And, you know, within a matter of weeks or months, all of Ukraine would be theirs. That did not happen. And I hope that we will make sure it doesn’t happens.

Martin Frost [00:19:31] But it does have implications on aggressive actions by China, because if China gets the idea that we are not worse, we’re not good allies for our friends, they will they will push as far as they can. And we’re in a great economic battle with China. No one expects us to go to war with China anytime soon, although you never. In this crazy world.

Martin Frost [00:19:55] But we’re in an economic battle with China, and they need to understand that we still are a major, major power militarily and economically. And we don’t want to do anything to encourage them to be to take an aggressive stance in Asia and try and take over countries the way Russia is trying to take over Ukraine.

David Blackmon [00:20:18] Yeah, and that economic rivalry with China, a lot of that revolves around energy and not just oil. Right. I mean, does it concern the council of you and the council when we see China now striking a deal with Bolivia, which has some of the richest lithium deposits on Earth to develop that country’s lithium, now’s really as kind of a part of the Belt and Road Initiative.

David Blackmon [00:20:46] That’s a big inroad into the lithium triangle, which is a resource that I know the Biden administration has wanted to target for for some of the lithium supplies we’re going to need for renewable energy and batteries here in the United States. When we see China moving into South America in such a big way. Is that something we should be concerned about?

Martin Frost [00:21:10] The answer is yes. And I have some good friends who are who are active across the world. I was the chairman of the board of the National Endowment for Democracy during the last four years of the Obama administration. And some of my friends who are very active in world affairs told me in the last couple of years, Watch out for China they’re making a big move into South America.

Martin Frost [00:21:34] And so, listen, we’re a great country we’re a world power, and we have to do everything we can wherever we can, wherever it’s feasible to make sure our friends are okay and to have good relationships with countries that historically have been our friends, but now may be in an economic position where they’re willing to do business with the other side.

David Blackmon [00:21:58] Well, and the inroads in South America, though, are not limited to Bolivia. There’s also Brazil, which is part of the BRICS alliance with China and Russia and India and South Africa.

Martin Frost [00:22:11] And then don’t forget about Venezuela.

David Blackmon [00:22:13] And Venezuela as well. Right. And, you know, it’s really becoming quite a trend, I think, for China to be in there. And when you look at the BRICS alliance, the G-7 just completed a ministerial meeting here this past weekend. Well, the BRICS alliance now has a larger collective GDP than the G7, which is an extraordinary development. And I mean, do you see the BRICS alliance also kind of helping to facilitate the growth of China’s influence globally?

Martin Frost [00:22:55] Well, it’s something we have to be aware of, but I’m not sure what the answer to that is. But you’re talking about the second tier of nations. But there were very broad needs right now. And, you know, you’re talking about China and India and three or four others. I’m not sure whether Australia is a part of that. Now, Brazil is a part of it, though.

David Blackmon [00:23:20] And South Africa and.

Martin Frost [00:23:22] South Africa, which is very curious, quite frankly, that they would be a part of that. But that’s their business. We get the point is that we can’t walk away from the world. We can’t just pull our horns in and say, well, we’re just we’re fine here in the United States. We don’t have to worry about anything that’s going on anywhere else. We have to take a world view and use our economic power and our own economic influence where we can. And we still are a wealthy, great country.

Martin Frost [00:23:52] And one of the things that will continue us as a wealthy, great country is being able to maximize our production of energy. And again, I want to be very clear we’re not talking about ignoring environmental issues. We want as much safety as possible, we want things done in an environmental way. But we have to continue developing our one of our really great natural resources.

Martin Frost [00:24:18] And the you’ve got extreme people on both sides that’s what’s very interesting. You’ve got extreme people on the liberal side who say keep it in the ground and you’ve got extreme people on the conservative Republican side who say, America first, don’t worry about any place else. Well, that’s it. We can’t do that. We know we are first and we need to keep it that way. And with part of that is making aware of what’s going on in the world with the rest of the world and using our influence and our economic power where we can.

David Blackmon [00:24:52] So last. Questions. We’re running up against time but but last question. Is it possible for America, really any other country to have what we like to refer to as a true sense of national security without having energy security at the time?

Martin Frost [00:25:11] No, no. Certainly it’s not possible for the United States. And and we have this great resource. And it’s very interesting. You know, the some of the people were a little more critical of the Biden administration because their policy on drilling in Alaska. Well, the Biden administration has agreed to open up some of the area in Alaska for drilling that previously hadn’t been. They understand the economic questions involved.

Martin Frost [00:25:36] They understand how we remain a great country and they’ve also put my are in the process of approve some development along the Gulf Coast of the United States and that you need to be able to export crude oil, which well, we eliminated the ban on exporting. We also need the infrastructure to be able to do that, and we need the infrastructure to be able to continue to develop and and export liquefied natural gas.

Martin Frost [00:26:05] So this is a complicated question there are no simple answers to this. But we’re a group of folks kind of in the middle politically who want to see the United States remain strong and vital and also energy self-sufficient to the extent it’s humanly possible to be.

David Blackmon [00:26:26] Well, Congressman, I can’t thank you enough for your time. I appreciate the work you’re doing on behalf of the council and really admire it and really appreciate you being on the show.

Martin Frost [00:26:37] Thank you for taking the interest and I’m will be down in Dallas in a couple of weeks. I’ve got to give a speech down there and I’ll see some of my fans still have some family in Texas. And I’ve got we’re kind of traveling around.

Martin Frost [00:26:49] We’ve got a granddaughter who’s graduating from the University of Pennsylvania Law School. We have to go to that. We have a grandson who’s graduating from the University of North Carolina Graduate School and Library Science and information Science. And then we have my wife and I have 13 grandchildren and and and some of them are in the process of applying for college.

Martin Frost [00:27:09] And so we both encourage them to to to to aim high and aim higher when you’re in terms of education. One of the granddaughters was here a couple of weeks ago looking at some colleges in the Washington, D.C. area and another one who’s a year younger than she is who’s who’s looking at colleges on the East Coast and maybe we’ll get some of them to go to school in Texas, I don’t know.

David Blackmon [00:27:39] But there’s lots of good schools out there.

Martin Frost [00:27:41] Oh, yeah. Well, my you know, my parents graduated from University of Texas that’s where they met. And and one of my one of my daughters went to University of Texas as a graduate degree from North Texas. So we’ve still got a strong interest in what’s going on in our state. But, you know, my attitude is that the best place you can get, that’s why if you can afford it, which is the second part of that class.

David Blackmon [00:28:04] It’s part. Yeah, that’s for sure. Well, thank you so much and yeah, best of luck and safe travels and and hopefully we’ll talk to you again sometime in the future.

Martin Frost [00:28:16] Love to do it. Love me. Do it. All right. Thanks for your time.

David Blackmon [00:28:18] Thank you. And that’s all for today’s episode of The Energy Question. Appreciate everyone joining us. Thanks to the Sandstone Group for hosting our show and to our extraordinary producer, Eric Parel I’m David Blackmon, signing off for now.

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